you can also buzz that low C on the mouthpiece alone for a few seconds everyday. You could buzz some of that little excercise bloke wrote out into a tuner too to make sure you are hearing the pitches also. This will help the focus of the chops on that pesky note.
My Boosey & Hawkes Eb has a 4th valve F (the one right below the staff) that, if I am not careful, can get fuzzy. Years ago when I first got the horn I spent some time buzzing that darn note on the mouhpiece alone (with a tuner) and that seemed to help me clear it up pretty well. I also discovered that I had the fourth valve tuning slide out too far, so i was fighting the horn to play it in tune. Not an issue anymore really.
k
It depends what the issue with the C on the particular horn is. (some is mostly intonation, some are just aweful to make a noise on and others are just a little squirrelly).
The biggest problem people have with these F's and the C is a mental one. You can't play the low C on an F horn the same way you'd approach it on a CC. So buzzing may or may not actually help. However, just playing that C on the F and changing the way you think about it can have tremendous results ( and of course using some good technique...you know.....playing the tuba good... )
tubashaman wrote:My professor does not see why I complain about the low notes being stuffier sometimes. He says it always sounds the same and the tone is as nice as the upper register.
Maybe our perfect recording we have in our head is getting in the way
Yes! I know I've posted this a couple of times. If you think your low C doesn't sound right, record yourself and see how the recording sounds. For some F tubas, the low C sounds bad to the player but not to the listener.
On MY F-tuba, that particular range seems to have particularly wide "slots" (errrm... canions ?). Same thing with the horns my students (errrm... tuba learning kids) use.
Why do we start kids on F in the first place ? Well... these tend to receive less dents when used by 9 through 11 year olds...
Anyways, beginning with Eb right below the staff, all beginning F-tubists I have met (including myself, many years ago) have been WAY too sharp. To my students, I´m making a point of demonstrating those notes being bendable by a major third, at least.
Those slots being wide or narrow, the problem remains the same: either You´ll have to hit the "slot" exactly, or find the correct pitch among the great variety the horn will support.
Hans
Melton 46 S
1903 or earlier GLIER Helicon, customized Hermuth MP
2009 WILLSON 6400 RZ5, customized GEWA 52 + Wessex "Chief"
MW HoJo 2011 FA, Wessex "Chief"
tubeast wrote:Why do we start kids on F in the first place ? Well... these tend to receive less dents when used by 9 through 11 year olds...
Not to derail the thread, but which brands and models of F tubas do you buy for your young students? How many valves do you prefer for these beginners?
I must be the only person that just doesn't get the whole...
"the low c is so hard"
"the low c is difficult to make speak"
"i had to work to get a consistent low c"
Personally, I have a much harder time keeping the pitch of the D down, to the point of generally playing it 3... A VERY big time getting the Bb and F# below said C to speak with consistency (or at least a sound like the rest of my range)... A HUGE difficulty getting the g above middle C to be in tune either open or 1st valve.
These things follow me around on all F tubas. The low C is there, when I listen to players the low C is usually pretty consistent thing too.
Wes...thinking it must be a feel thing for quite a few people...
Bob1062 wrote:What was your overall impression of it?
Bob, as you know, I am just selling my 182 (heading for its new home today). Mine is a great little player with nice tone and solid low register. Although no F tuba player, I did not experience too much trouble with the fabled low C.
I am only selling mine because 'for me' my 2040/5 is MUCH better.
MaryAnn wrote:I was hoping that Genius Rick would tune in on the dent story with some node-anti-node theory, but he didn't. Oh well...
MA
I have no explanation. I would, however, be happy to study the matter in some detail. But Steve would have to provide me with the object of study. I think I could come to a conclusion in, oh, three or four years.
Rick "not willing to apply said dent to his own B&S without that study" Denney
I have owned three F tubas over the years, two of which I still own.
The first was a Musica with four valves. I don't really know who actually made it. It was not that small--probably about the size of a 180 with a 15 or 16" bell and about a .710 bore.
Below the staff, it got oinky and stuffy in a hurry, and the low register was utterly unresonant. The upper register, though, was not bad. Like the better of Wade's former 180's, it was a good starter F.
Then, I got the Yamaha 621. That is a solid producer of correct notes for me, then as now. My own tone issues have been limiting enough so that the reported blandness of the instrument was never an issue for me. It was and is the only tuba in my collection that made enough money to pay for itself (without having to be sold, that is). It is not for sale.
I absolutely agree with Wade that the sound, clarity, and focus of the 621 improved tremendously when I (finally) switched to a shallow bowl-shaped mouthpiece. In fact, I use the same mouthpiece on my B&S.
The B&S Symphonie was the F tuba that taught the F tuba world how to be big. We think of the old Symphonie as a small F, but really that's just silly. It has the same outer branches (for the most part) as any of the current B&S models. It fits without too much room left over in the gig bag I use for my Miraphone 186. The only difference I can tell between it and a PT-10 is that the first and fifth valves on the older model are a bit smaller, resulting in four different bores in the instrument instead of just three. Personally, I think the instrument plays better than the newer models, but I know that not all share that opinion.
It's about the same vintage as Bloke's 6-valve F tuba, and yes the fifth valve is operated by the left thumb.
I bought it because the Yamaha didn't have enough projection to be heard in a large ensemble. The band I'm in plays a lot of transcriptions, and at the time we had a player in the other chair who was much better than me. For stuff like Berlioz transcriptions, I would play the F to get a little of the authentic Berlioz tuba sound in the mix, while the other player provided the string-bass component. The Yamaha could not get out, but the B&S's much better projection does the job.
The low C on the B&S requires much more finesse than the same note on the Yamaha. And the intonation of the B&S is generally less controlled below the staff, and it requires more attention to get the pitches right. I often play the low C 3-5, and the low Bb 1-2-4, while the Yamaha centers those pitches with 4 and 4-5. But the fifth valve on the old B&S is a bit too short to be a true flat whole-step fifth, which is really the same length as the first valve on a C tuba.
Every bit of the practice I have put into the low C on the Symphonie has improved my sound on the Yamaha.
Rick "who finds that F tubas do not respond to be pushed, but rather prefer to be fed" Denney
imperialbari wrote:
Another poster in another context hinted that the low C slots way high on some rotor F tubas. My reply to that would be to pull the 4th slide accordingly, and to find the most efficient compromise on slide position, as the G a fifth higher also shall be playable. With a long whole step in the 5th valve the low C maybe even works better if fingered 3+5.
Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre
3+5 is exactly what I use on my 182, and while it doesn't "cure" the note, it does make it reasonably manageable even by me.
Every bit of the practice I have put into the low C on the Symphonie has improved my sound on the Yamaha.
The most important line in Rick's latest opus. Tubas "with good sound" often produce *acceptable* sound with little effort - but are capable of much better sound if only the player works at it and hits the note just so. Tubas "with problem notes" produce acceptable sound if the player works at it and hits the note just so - and complete garbage if they don't.
I have an antique, pea-shooter, Eb helicon that is now mostly played at TubaChristmas by my son the trombone player. I've found that 1 hour wrestling with this beast improves my sound on my King BBb much, much, more than practicing for 2 hours on the King. It's too easy to accept a not-quite-perfect sound on a tuba with good sound and narrow slots. On the Eb helicon, my son's take (he's a much better player than I am) is "whatever you put in at the mouthpiece comes out the bell" - for better, or worse.
Let's see....I need to study a 345 for a while, Rick.
Since MA is a skeptic, I'll say it again...
Seriously, when I sent Bob Tucci a picture years ago (maybe the early 90s, via snail mail), he said, at first glance without doing any real intense Denny-esque study, that the dent appears to be in a location that would knock the wave around a bit. Admittedly, that isn't hard evidence of anything, but he certainly knows the design of the instrument and probably has/had charts (with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one) or something of the nodes and antinodes. Even though it was essentially an anecdotal response, I'm sticking with it.
eupher61 wrote:Admittedly, that isn't hard evidence of anything, but he certainly knows the design of the instrument and probably has/had charts (with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one)
Is it really that time of year again Officer Obie?
the elephant wrote: a low register that was really "odd" but was quite manageable with some work. Wade
BINGO
Probably describes most F tubas (except the 621 - which I also regret selling) to a greater or lessor extent. I am still having no low B issues on the 181; maybe something shanged on the horn over the years, or maybe somehting different in my anatomy just pushes that slight fuzziness up to the low D. Low C isn't perfect but perfectly acceptable.
eupher61 wrote:Let's see....I need to study a 345 for a while, Rick.
Sorry. That tuba is already fully engaged in the pursuit of science. We cannot ignore the needs of science!
(But seriously...come to the Army Conference and being the B&S. We'll hide in a corner, and you can try out the Holton while I compare our two B&S F's.)
Rick "for whom science must be the motivation, because music apparently isn't" Denney
If this RD-low-C research project actually looks like it's going to happen...that might be enough to get me to the Army conference next year. Or...you could put it off to the next ITEA and I won't have to buy plane fare!
I was buying a new F-tuba this spring, and probably the most important thing for me was that the instrument shouldn´t have any "bad notes". The instrument that I had in mind was the bigger Yamaha F, but I also tested B&S PT11. Surprisingly the B&S did play very well in the "low C"-register. Was I just lucky or didn´t I just notice anything wrong with the difficult register? In the end I chose the PT11, because I like its german sound - which for me means very resonant, dark sound.
So, if the B&S:s are OK today, is there even an "low C" issue with F-tubas? There are a lot of tuba models that play well in every register: Yamahas, Meltons (I had a chance to test one of their small models, and found no real difficulties), Miraphones Firebird - and even B&S:s. Why do we have to choose an instrument that has difficulties in some register?
(I know what´s the low C-thing about. My B&S Apollo F has a bit stuffy mid-low-register. You learn how to deal with it, but it´s never very good.)
eupher61 wrote:Let's see....I need to study a 345 for a while, Rick.
... the dent appears to be in a location that would knock the wave around a bit.
I was happy with my euro F tuba too, once I got the "Clear Nodal Overlay with Dent-tonation Hammer Kit." After a few whacks it played fine. Buy yours on ebee.
City Intonation Inspector - Dallas Texas "Holding the Bordognian Fabric of the Universe together through better pitch, one note at a time."
Practicing results in increased atmospheric CO2 thus causing global warming.
Alex C wrote:
I was happy with my euro F tuba too, once I got the "Clear Nodal Overlay with Dent-tonation Hammer Kit." After a few whacks it played fine. Buy yours on ebee.
)
