Ideal, within affordability, 4 valve BBb’s for younger teens

[cjk]

The Schiller looks to be some sort of hybrid cross between the Allora (Miraphone copy) 191 and the Dalyan (Cerveny pig copy) "Prague"...

...but the "retail" (BuyItNow) price is about half of the lowest prices I've seen for the other two models.

Seriously, which might (??) be a better value? A Yamaha 105 peashooter 3-valve gruntaphone for $3400 (NO CASE) or a full-size/4-valve Schiller "Communist Heritage" for $1600 or so WITH a deluxe case?

That Schiller sure does look an awful lot like a Hirsbrunner HBS 192. From orientation of slides to the routing of the leadpipe, they look the same. If I had seen the pic below on the left by its lonesome, I would swear it was an HB.

[cjk]

Bob??

Congratulations Bob.
....

Thanks Frank!

[cjk]

Broad-brushing all Chinese tubas as "bad" (particularly before individual models are closely-examined) would seemingly tend to be about as accurate as stating that all American trumpets are "good".
...

I couldn't agree more.

I have played three different Chinese made copies of the VMI/B&S/Sonora/Gerhard Sneider/etc... 4/4ish BBb tuba. All three had different brand names engraved on them. All three were decent. They weren't as sonically pleasing as the Geretsried-made originals that I've played, but are all those 6/4 monstrous York-o-phones on the market 100% as good as the instrument they intend to copy?

I would wager that better than half the folks that post on TubeNet about Chinese instruments being lesser than instruments from other parts of the world fall into one of two camps.

The first is folks that simply regurgitate what they read or hear on TubeNet. There are a lot of "third party" opinions around here.

The second is those folks that have already made up their minds made up that the Chinese instruments will be lousy. Even when they do play one, they think it's lousy because their minds were already made up prior to picking up the horn.

If you have played a tuba made in China and you hate that particular tuba, that's fine. That experience does not apply to every other tuba made in China. There is a lot of American/German/Swiss/etc stuff that is also terrible.

People should make up their own minds by playing the horns themselves.


-Christian

[cjk]

Bob??

Congratulations Bob.
....

Thanks Frank!

No problem Tom!

[euphdude]

Speaking of Schiller instruments, I bought a Schiller compensating euphonium off of ebay for next to nothing and it appears to be a stencil of Tuba Exchange compensating euphonium.

http://www.jimlaabsmusic.com/band-orche ... d_645.html" target="_blank

In addition, like the Tuba Exchange, it appears to be copying the Yamaha 642....the valve tops, curves of the tubing, tuning slides, valve felts, EVERYTHING appears to be based off the 642....my tendonitis even came back like it did with the 642. But this stenciled compensator certainly reminds me a lot of the fine 642 from my memory. Like the 642, I struggle a little with the high C above high Bb (the infamous B-natural isn't so bad oddly enough with the 2nd valve in either horn). Like the 642, this issue is remedied with use of the 4th valve for the High C. Even the valves appear to be the same as the Yamaha with the gold brass ports in the valves. The compensating register reminds me of the 642. Overall, this instrument is 95-98% as good as my Willson 2900 with the large shank. The brass finish isn't quite as refined and beautiful as you would expect for a premium instrument. The valve springs don't have the plastic coating that Yamaha uses, and tend to be a little noiser than I remember with the 642. But, for the money, I don't think you can do better. I don't plan on using this for fancy solos because of my tendonitis, but I have been using this for general playing. Two enthusiastic thumbs up!

[imperialbari]

I have, in vain, tried to trace the Chinese Hirsbrunner copy on the German market. No Schillers and the Dalyan’s there are rather Piggy’s or Kaiser’s. Should I be tempted to test that model, buying it from out of the EU would be too expensive in extra costs.

K

[tubashaman2]

.

[tubashaman2]

.

[steve_decker]

http://www.schillerinstruments.com/company.html" target="_blank

So, does Chinese manufactured but German design equate to lower quality? Other industries use this business model quite successfully, sooner or later we should be able to get a quality musical instrument manufactured in China.

[imperialbari]

I haven’t dug down into this matter very much and I am not sufficiently interested to warrant wasting time on it:

But why don’t I meet the Schiller instruments, when I sift through German brass related outlets? Which I do because my collector’s itching is coming up again after my brasses have been organized here in my new home like they never were before.

I took a look at the Schiller page linked to and got nausea from reading just the first few lines. Some families are very well documented (including my own). Just find a relevant one of these and buy the right to abuse the name.

I written about this previously and may be sketchy in this encore:

Hans Pizka, retired solo horn in the orchestra where Bob Tucci also used to play, is married to an ethnic Chinese lady. He travels extensively in East Asia. He is related to a business making horns in China. He cannot be suspected to be biased against Chinese culture. Yet he is very critical against Chinese work ethics, where he says that the motivation for the Chinese ladies doing the assembly work on the horns is not about establishing themselves an income to live on. They see a job foremost as an opportunity for joining a social get together. They may, in their own language, be precisely instructed in the procedures to be carried out. They will smile and bow and do as told while the instructor is there. If he unexpectedly returns the next day, none of his instructions are followed.

The same goes for the male operators of the lathes turning the rotors. Rotors shall be turned in one procedure to avoid grates. The operators prefer to do half the procedure and then take out the blank and mount it the other way round before finishing the rotor. They can be instructed, may accept the instruction and follow it while supervised. Still they will do as they want the nest day.

Why do we then see some buyers being very satisfied with Chinese instruments? Because the European and American contractors provide “acoustically” very good patterns, mandrels, and other tools. By accident some samples will be well assembled. It is just a matter of finding them.

We have had similar, but all European, scenarios within the other instrument family I have worked within: the recorders. I came out very disappointed with some samples from high-end makers, because these cannot afford to destroy their less happy samples. I turned around and took the opposite direction in my acquisitions. Two German makers on each their side of the wall had good designs, but an inconsistent execution, very much so. As I was a major buyer for my students I was allowed to select instruments from the storages of the importers. My rejection rate was over 90%, but then I ended up with fine instruments for my students and for myself at prices to be envied. Very few teachers invested as many hours in the selection process as I did. So the importers still got their inventory sold.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[The Big Ben]

Yet he is very critical against Chinese work ethics, where he says that the motivation for the Chinese ladies doing the assembly work on the horns is not about establishing themselves an income to live on. They see a job foremost as an opportunity for joining a social get together. They may, in their own language, be precisely instructed in the procedures to be carried out. They will smile and bow and do as told while the instructor is there. If he unexpectedly returns the next day, none of his instructions are followed.

The same goes for the male operators of the lathes turning the rotors. Rotors shall be turned in one procedure to avoid grates. The operators prefer to do half the procedure and then take out the blank and mount it the other way round before finishing the rotor. They can be instructed, may accept the instruction and follow it while supervised. Still they will do as they want the nest day.

That sounds more like Communist work habits rather than "Chinese". If employment in a 'worker's paradise' is assured, there isn't much motivation to do a good job. It's my understanding that it is more important to meet the production goals of the central planners than making sure the products are of good quality. As long as there are 100 horns in the container, things are cool.

The Chinese are capable of producing quality as good as anyone in the world. The consumers are going to have to insist upon it.

[imperialbari]

...so Klaus, which is it? You must make up your mind whether you're an advocate or a critic...

(At least) in my country, the more of this - over time - we embrace, the crappier are our results:

http://tinyurl.com/64jyur

You lost me on this “From each accordion to his ability, to each accordion to his need”-knucklehead theology.

We may discuss theoretically and ideologically from now on to doomsday. Yet what counts is how somebody votes with his own money. One way of listing my brass instruments is counting them by countries of origin. I haven’t discerned between West Germany and the GDR, as Germany is now unified (one edit due to faulty entries in the spreadsheet):

Germany - 20
US – 17
UK – 17
Unknown maker – 4 (all German or Czech rotor instruments polished into anonymity)
France – 3
Czechia - 3
Taiwan – 3
Japan – 2
Belgium – 2
Denmark – 1
Austria – 1
Switzerland – 1
Italy – 1
Russia – 1
Pakistan – 1


Klaus

[cjk]

All those 6/4 monstrous Yorkophones?

Gee, from what I understood there have been less than 200 of them built.
However, there ARE a great deal of Korean duplicates built, authorized or not, that look like one of the 'Yorkophones' you cite, Christian, but are not built in Geretsreid.

I made an error in my post and I think you misinterpreted what I wrote as a result.

This:

I have played three different Chinese made copies of the VMI/B&S/Sonora/Gerhard Sneider/etc... 4/4ish BBb tuba. All three had different brand names engraved on them. All three were decent. They weren't as sonically pleasing as the Geretsried-made originals that I've played, but are all those 6/4 monstrous York-o-phones on the market 100% as good as the instrument they intend to copy?

should have been:

I have played three different Chinese made copies of the VMI/B&S/Sonora/Gerhard Sneider/etc... 4/4ish BBb tuba. All three had different brand names engraved on them. All three were decent. They weren't as sonically pleasing as the Markneukirchen -made originals that I've played, but are all those 6/4 monstrous York-o-phones on the market 100% as good as the instrument they intend to copy?

My point is that the particular Chinese manufactured instrument is not quite as good as the originals.

And for comparison, there are lots of "6/4" tubas out there that are "copies" or "copies of copies" or "copies of copies of copies" (whatever) of the infamous CSO York. Are all of them as good as the original? Obviously not, else there wouldn't be so many.

To me "6/4 monstrous Yorkophones" includes the Holton 345, Yorkbrunner, Nirschl York, MW 2165/2265, Grontiz PCK, PT 7P, Neptune, YamaYork, etc....

I mis-stated the location that the VMI/B&S tubas were made as Geretsried instead of Markneukirchen (easy to do, Melton is in Geretsried and is part of the same company as B&S these days). I think you somehow took that personally, as the Nirschl tubas are also made in Geretsried.

[Rick Denney]

And for comparison, there are lots of "6/4" tubas out there that are "copies" or "copies of copies" or "copies of copies of copies" (whatever) of the infamous CSO York. Are all of them as good as the original? Obviously not, else there wouldn't be so many.

Hmmm. I wonder if the CSO York (in the flesh) is as good as the CSO York (in the legend).

I think the main difference between the CSO York and the better copies is that the York was played first by Jacobs and now by Pokorny, while those copies are not. Big difference in most cases. I've heard little description by those who have spent quality time with the York, except for broad characteristics that are indeed shared to one extent or another by the copies.

Also, it is wrong to assume that the copies are necessarily trying to be exact copies. Those who have and love good Holtons don't really think of them as a poor man's York. They think of them as great grand orchestral tubas in their own right, and I don't doubt that some might prefer a good Holton to the York if given a real opportunity to compare. Ditto the other "copies", all of which attempt to improve on the original in one way or another.

I have played two Chinese copies of a Miraphone 1291. I didn't think that much of either. They both lacked the easy resonance and depth of the Miraphone. I have, however, played and inspected more mature rotary Chinese instruments that were completely competent, especially for a young player. The Dalyan Prague is one example. I also thought pretty highly (considering the price) of one of the M&M rotary tubas--I forget now which specific model. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe that these can be competent instruments for the money no matter what you think of buying a Chinese tuba in general. There are other valid issues to consider, of course.

Rick "who has also played several St. Petersburg tubas and found a couple to be not bad" Denney

[cjk]

And for comparison, there are lots of "6/4" tubas out there that are "copies" or "copies of copies" or "copies of copies of copies" (whatever) of the infamous CSO York. Are all of them as good as the original? Obviously not, else there wouldn't be so many.

Hmmm. I wonder if the CSO York (in the flesh) is as good as the CSO York (in the legend).

I hope I never get the chance to play it as I don't wish to be disappointed.
Honestly, I would jump at the chance.

I think the main difference between the CSO York and the better copies is that the York was played first by Jacobs and now by Pokorny, while those copies are not. Big difference in most cases. I've heard little description by those who have spent quality time with the York, except for broad characteristics that are indeed shared to one extent or another by the copies.

Funny that you mentioned that. My car has a 6 disk CD changer. Quite accidentally, these two disks played one after another. It was very interesting to hear two different people play some of the same stuff on the same instrument.

Also, it is wrong to assume that the copies are necessarily trying to be exact copies....

My research would indicate that some of them are and some of them aren't. The 2165 was an improvement (for some folks) on a Holton, hence I would consider it an improved copy of a copy. The PCK doesn't appear to be a copy of anything. The Nirschl and YamaYork would appear to be trying to be exact copies. I have read that the Yorkbrunner started as a copy of the lesser of the two Yorks, then was improved upon. I do not know first hand if that is actually true.

Walter Nirschl York Model
This new tuba is the first exact copy of the vintage York instrument played by Arnold Jacobs during the last eighteen years of his tenure with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and which is now owned by the CSO. While playing with the CSO for the 1992-93 season, I took new measurements of the horn which Walter Nirschl of Geretsried, Germany and I used to begin design for the new prototype in 1994.

Tubas
* Yamaha CC Tuba 826 "Monica" (pictured at right), 6/4 prototype, silver, 4 piston valves-1 rotary. Precise copy of the better of Arnold Jacobs' Yorks.

The HB-50 "Grand Orchestral" is Hirsbrunner's copy of the original York 6/4 CC tuba made famous by Arnold Jacobs and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.

All the best,

Christian

[Dean E]

* * * * *
The excessively thin-walled piston casings on Yamaha tubas do not allow for any interior counterbored "relief" area on the threaded ends of the casings. Therefore, when the valve caps (inevitably) are over-torqued, the pistons are then effectively "locked" into the casings...and this is *not* a quick/easy repair, because functionality requires 1/ casing/valve cap threads that - once again - work properly and 2/ a piston that can escape its casing. In other words, *neither* the inside *nor* the outside of the tops of Yamaha tuba valve casings may be slightly compromised to allow the other to function. * * * * *
bloke "around the block too many times to be susceptible to dealer rep. hype, free banners, brochures, calendars, lunches, ball caps, work aprons, etc..."

The top rotor cap on my Yamaha 822 F is not responding to penetrating oil or light tapping with a wooden dowel. Sounds like I had better take it to a pro.

I had no idea that the piston casing was so thin.