Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"

[Michael Bush]

If you do NOT do such things I think that you are a spineless sap. Sorry, I call them as I see them. And that is what such hand-wringing namby-pambyness deserves. Stand up and say your bit.

Okay, then. Time choose between the keyboard and the bottle.

(Obviously I don't know that's what's going on, but it sure reads like it.)

[Dan Schultz]

Call Fender and ask them where their axes are made. All of them. And be prepared to get a map.

Same's true for Conn/Selmer/Steinway and other major names. It's a World market and manufacturers/assemblers are going to buy their components and sub-assemblies from the most cost-effective (with regard to quality, of course) sources they can.

(Note the striking similarities between the Conn B-112 base trombone and the Jupiter offering). I doubt very seriously if Jupiter is buying their trombones from Conn!

[MackBrass]

Elephant

Your claims of Jim L. are one thing, but to paint with a broad brush on what you think is happening today with dealers/manufacturers and to classify them in the way you have is much, much worse. You have balls my Friend.

Stop living in the past by giving your personal experiences from 30 years ago. You need parts? You can get them, end of story.

If you have not been to my site, please feel free to read my home page as I state my mission right up front. Your mass categorizations are way off, you want to call it like it is, then do so but don't place all into your self-made categories.

[Homerun]

[cjk]

[Homerun]

Where can I buy those clones?

[tubaforce]

My turn now!
All my instruments to date have had "JinBao" stencilled on their bells! I find the Tubas and other Brasses I sell to be equal to or better than most of the Weril and Jupiter stuff I've tried! As to comparisons, look to posts by Dan Scultz(1291-vs clone) and Neptune (981-vs clone, and Huashen vs Melton tba...). I started my business while looking for an affordable Tuba for my Daughter, one that would not need 1000's of dollars worth of Oberloh caliber magic! With the help of Bob Gullihur(puveyer of all things Bass), and the approval by Vince Simonetti of JinBao's offerings, I proceeded to develope relationships with several factories willing to sell in small quantities! And when I read my first price quotes for only FIVE Tubas, I became positivlely LIVID! Markups of up to 400%, and deceptive advertising have been the norm since BEFORE any JinBao's worth a crap came to be!!! Listen to the sound and intonation of that F Tuba on Mack's YouTube link!, and we're not even close to doubling up on these axes! I have a day job as a Steamfitter, thank you, and I don't need to make a living selling Tubas! Good thing, because no one has any money to buy the Kanstuls Mr. Haggerty gave me a chance to sell! JinBao is here to stay, and I will continue to offer mine with "JinBao" on the bell(or Big Bottom by JinBao...)! And I hope none of you nay sayers are loosing sleep playing YAMAHA's "stolen" designs!!! And, guess what! You people with 321 euphs, and 321 BBb Tubas, or 641(Alexander rip-offs!) players may be playing on a stencil...

Al
P.S. I also refuse to "push" any Tuba I can't reccomend!!!

[Donn]

Now what is happening in other parts of Asia like India, Vietnamn and so on? There were some Eb flat tubas showing up on ebay earlier that I think was from India. Anyone know anything?

Yes, often chrome plated. There's one with a hysterically funny video, where the hapless technician is obliged to demonstrate the tuba's delightful sonorities.

Not many Tubenet members have checked in with first-hand reports of these instruments, but since it isn't clear exactly who makes them, they could only be identified generically as of Indian origin, and since they're terrible, you can see that this would constitute a slur against all the peoples of India. Any sensible person would steer clear of this conundrum.

Don't take my word for it, but I think if there's any place in the world where the sousaphone appears in popular music, it's India. Maybe they actually make usable brass instruments there, but only for their own market at this point.

[averagejoe]

It seems to me that the thread is longer because the distributors of the horns being discussed felt the need to steer the discussion towards the quality and value of the horns instead of the original topic of the thread; supposed prejudice.

It was not so much about prejudice, though the rotten experiences some here have had over the years with this company do indeed make them prejudge. I am one of these.

But you are spot-on correct in the "steering" that has been going on. Let the sellers stay out of this thread. Let us hash out what it is EXACTLY that we dislike about these horns without the steering that is causing arguments (at least for me). It is NOT appreciated at all. If the sellers who are trying to make a buck would just shut up and listen to what is being expressed they would have all the information they needed to make these horns top sellers. Interfering and steering, defending when it is not needed, is causing a lot of repetition and frustration. And trying to answer questions by not answering the actual question is very counterproductive for them.
...

This thread was originally intended to be a discussion of possible prejudice->post by 123go: "Is it just me or does it bother anyone else that people keep referring to Jinbao as "those Chinese horns", "those Asian horns", or even worse "those communist Chinese horns"? Obviously there is more than one Asian instrument maker - can you say Yamaha? There is also obviously more than one Chinese instrument maker. So why the generalization? I hate to say it, but this sounds a bit derogatory to those of Asian descent. After all, do people refer to Conn instruments as "those Capitalist American horns"?"

I put in my bit in response to the original post, but I probably shouldn't have wasted my time. The distributors of the Chinese instruments couldn't pass up a chance to put in their sales pitches, and hijacked the thread.

[Wyvern]

Ok, there seems to be some opposition to stencilling - so what I will do is get some models in stock on my next couple of orders with both Jinbao/Huashen and my own Wessex brand name engraved and see what customers/buyers want. I am quite happy either way, but will be guided by consumer wishes. I know some people will not buy an instrument just because what is engraved on the bell

[jamsav]

wow....watching this thread with great amusement ....Neptune, I dont care what you call them ...keep pressing the manufacturer for better quality !
There is a long history of " stenciling" or private labeling here in the states , but it only seems to upset many when the original point of manufacture is Asia ....
If you dont like the horns, great , no problem, but for many , the value /price ratio makes sense and makes these horns an option .
Most importers dont try to hide point of origin ( Jim Laab being a possible exception ) .
It wasnt too long ago that many felt the same way about Yamaha ....the times they are a changin'....who'd of thunk of getting a good tuba out of Brazil ????
Judge the horn for what it is, and how it plays ....not for you , no problem , but I guaranty you , that in a few short yrs , these horns will start showing up in the hands of conservatory kids who will win auditions with them and ultimately carry them into some of the worlds best orchestras ....

[Wyvern]

Neptune, I dont care what you call them ...keep pressing the manufacturer for better quality !

I don't care what they are called either, but it seems all important to some people.

For quality, both my wife* and I stressed the need for better quality controls vigorously during our recent factory visits - will see what effect it has had

* My wife explained in Chinese, so there should be no language problem preventing understanding

[Tundratubast]

Wow, can't belive this wasn't locked days ago. This thread took off in multiple directions from the start, somethings factual, some mis-truths, lots of un-verifiable information, Some postive comments and thoughts, lots of critcal comments; both personal and technical, name calling. Overall value, meaningless squabble. Lock-it up and be done.

[imperialbari]

Very interesting to see at least one monkey coming down from the trees.

I don’t know American law, but at least in my country the guaranty obligations are with the retailer, who may then refer his claims to the importer.

Miraphone instruments sold in Southern Germany have ben seen to be engraved as prominently with the retailer’s name as well as with Miraphone’s. I don’t think it is demanded by law, only such engraving hints retailer and maker back their merchandise.

When the narrow bore piston French horns went out of fashion in England 50 or 60 years ago, B&H/Besson had no tradition of making rotary valves (even the early Sovereign trombone valves came out of Markneukirchen). Still B&H/Besson wanted being present in the market segment for horns. They had two foreign makers producing for them, Lidl and B&S (B&S out of their Hoyer workshop). It was not always clear which maker, but at least this engraving told the country of origin, and I have seen such engraving on a British military owned instrument:

Bell engraving.jpg

Schneider was the name B&S put on instruments which approached a grey area. This horn is a copy of an Alexander 103.

The American designer Fred Marzan worked together with Böhm & Meinl and with Willson. This engraving leaves no doubts about the actual maker:

Engraving.jpg

The Salvation Army made instruments considered very British, but apparently the business was not without problems as production stopped some 40 years ago. And this engraving tells even they distributed foreign instruments:

Engraving.jpg

If an importer keeps the engraving of the maker on the bell and adds Imported by [Name of his business], doubt would find much less reason.

Klaus

[The Big Ben]

Seven steins at once! Whatta gal! I'm in love!

[Lingon]

...not crap like "Lark"...

You mean like this great little alto? Nice horn that still lives and plays well with a nice sound and intonation.

This thread is fascinating and many things can be learnt both abouth the horns and some very interesting
attitudes and differences in the cultural/social interactive domain. Do not lock it because here is stuff
to be learnt, even if some of it maybe is a bit off topic. Why not rename the thread to something that reflects
the direction of the discussion a bit more?

[cjk]

[Bandsman79]

One question; would it be more, or less, racist for me to refer to them as "Oriental horns"?



BTW, I'll make my mind up about the quality of these instruments once I've played and inspected one.

[MackBrass]

Quality begins at the manufacturer and ends at the dealer. If an instrument winds up at the customer level with issues, then shame on that dealer, send it back, and shop somewhere else. Neptune, Al and myself have spoken in depth offline about quality, logos, pricing, websites, honestly, integrity and the measures we have put in place to make sure that customer service and satisfaction is the most important result.

We are the game changers and for this reason as well as many others we have decided to start our businesses. You can be assured that our products, yes, for now, made in China and not just by Jinbao, will be inspected, played and tested prior to shipping. Neptune has spent a lot of time and money on his trip to China, what he has posted on this forum is only a scratch on the surface of what he has accomplished and what is to come in the future.

[Donn]

There is a long history of " stenciling" or private labeling here in the states , but it only seems to upset many when the original point of manufacture is Asia ....

It wasnt too long ago that many felt the same way about Yamaha ....the times they are a changin'....who'd of thunk of getting a good tuba out of Brazil ????

But if you actually look at these examples, they illustrate the very points he's making. If I buy a "Carl Fischer" instrument from the '30s, maybe with a little research I can decide that it is 1) made by Conn, but 2) probably with some cost cutting. Yes, a stencil, and probably no great service to the instrument buying public, but the point is that meanwhile, Conn did produce instruments under their name. When they sign their name to an instrument, they live or die by the outcome. If a few years go by and it's increasingly obvious that "Schiller" tubas are inferior to their competitors, they only need to change the name to "Slizl" or something, but Conn is Conn, and we know them by well over a century of accumulated experience with their work under that label. If makers of "Schiller" are not interested in taking their place in that lineup of manufacturers who sell their work under their own name, then they evidently feel that they have nothing to gain by being compared with their competitors.

Yamaha and Weril evidently were willing to take that step, and have indeed shown that quality instruments can be made in various parts of the world.