high g#: Bydlo vs. VW concerto

[JB]

these G#/Ab in the bydlo and VW are they thes ones above the staff, or still within?

Above. (Three ledger lines above, actually.)



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[Roger Lewis]

The solo, while representing the ox cart, is actually more likely the singing of the ox cart driver. The great Russian men's choruses are known for the great voices and the exceptional style they have. Even though this is probably a peasant driving the ox cart it doesn't mean that he cannot sing with vibrato and beautiful color. As long as the bass/baritone voice is represented by the player it shouldn't matter which horn it is done on.

I know there are some conductors that want it played in a very drab manner without any trace of vibrato. Personally I don't feel that's appropriate (but will do what I'm told).

Personally I believe in maximizing my chances of success and do it on a euph with a Bobo cheater mouthpiece. It gives it a nice dark sound and the partials are still far enough apart on the euph to make it easier to get things to slot. The dark sound of the Miraphone euph helps a lot also.

Just my take on things.

[JB]

Personally I believe in maximizing my chances of success and do it on a euph with a Bobo cheater mouthpiece.

Could you provide some details/description of this "Bobo cheater" mouthpiece, and is it commercially available?


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[tubacdk]

bobo tenor tuba mouthpiece info: http://www.mouthpieceexpress.com/catalo ... s_id=16609

I have performed pictures twice, and I played bydlo both times. The first time I used a Besson Euph with a mpc similar to the bobo linked above, and the second time I used an Alexander 151 (tenor tuba/kaiser rotary euph/whatever you wanna call it) with the bobo tenor mpc. I much prefer the sound of the Alex, it has a breadth and warmth that really blends with the sonorities around it. I agree with Roger Lewis that the solo is actually the voice of the driver instead of the sounds of the cart itself.

as far as the intent of the composer/orchestrator, I'm sure that he would want the solo to be played as musically as possible, no matter what the equipment, so long as it has a characteristic low brass voice. I can guarantee you that he'd prefer to hear a secure, musical solo on a "tenor" instrument instead of a squeezed and nervous solo on a "bass" instrument. On the other hand, if you can make the best musical statement on your F tuba, more power to you.

I heard great reviews about Jeff Anderson playing bydlo on his F tuba with SF recently.... I'm sure Ravel would have been pleased.

[windshieldbug]

You have to sit through about 12 minutes of music before coming in

... and

4. Most of the audience has at least HEARD Bydlo done well before, whereas perhaps the two audience members that have ANY acquaintance with the tuba have any knowledge that the Vaughan Willians exists, let alone what it sounds like.

I played it in one series on my 45 just to prove to myself I could do it. ABOUT HAD A HEART ATTACK LEADING UP TO IT , but somehow, it went well. The next series, I used a euphonium. I should have given it to a trombonist, but why let them have the fun? It's a beautifully written solo...

[tbn.al]

There is an interesting argument that the "Ox Cart" title is really a polictical smokescreen. What do you guys think?

Here's a link. http://www.geocities.jp/tatsuyabanno/Bi ... dlo-e.html

[windshieldbug]

Playing with a professional symphony IS NOT LIKE A SPORTING EVENT. You do not do "the best you can". It is your duty to give your audience what the shelled out hard currency for. EVERY TIME.

You don't do it until you can't miss. You do it until you can do it on your worst day, when your significant other has just left with the pool person after a shouting match in the car that contained ALL of your good horns and every mouthpiece you owned, leaving you to do it with a Dylan fiberglass BBb Sousaphone.

And the ushers don't put notes about what you're up against in the programs, nor does the conductor make any announcements to the audience about it, either. If they do say anything, it'll be an amusing "a funny thing happened to me on the way to the concert" story, or about how Barber's School For Scandal overture was actually written about the obedience training class for his pet terrier, Scandal.

All that said, I like the way it sounds done on a 6/4 F. It feels more secure done on a euphonium. I don't think it matters what the picture was, what Modest meant, or even what Ravel had in mind. It's what the conductor wants (no matter how wrong I think they might be), for what I consider to be a very lyrical solo, with a driving accompanyment. And if I can't do that, I picked the wrong business.

[Chuck(G)]

There is an interesting argument that the "Ox Cart" title is really a polictical smokescreen. What do you guys think?

Search the archives. "Bydlo" (however it's spelled) does not mean an oxcart in Russian or Polish. It does, however, carry a connotation of peasantry or rabble in both languages. (It literally means "cattle". Image Google it, but with the Polish spelling of "Bydło" and see if you see any oxcarts.) I think there's something to the claim by the article you cited.

[iiipopes]

Bullshit. It's all bullshit. It's just a piece of music. Descriptive, yes. Descriptive of what, well, have the musicological debate. Technically difficult, so what. Just play it. Being a band player, and not an orchestra tubist, I'll never have the opportunity to play it. So you can rag me all you want. I'll stand up and say I resemble that remark. I've had my share of similar top of the mountain tests, both in the context of music and the other jobs I've had. PM and I'll tell you what real stress is in the context of holding other people's lives in your hand with every word you say in front of a court jury. It's all attitude. Either you prepare yourself properly with attitude, practice, context, instrument and mindset to play it properly and in concert with whatever orchestra you're with and under whatever the director wants, or you don't and shouldn't play it. When you prepare yourself properly, it just happens like it should. Bydlo just happens to be the piece in the tuba repertoire like this. Ask any pianist about Rach III, or trumpet player about Haydn, opera soloist about just about anything by Wagner, etc., and it's the same scenario. Those who can, do; those who can't bitch about it on a forum.

[Art Hovey]

I think it sounds best on a euphonium played by a real euphonium player. I heard an excellent and well-known tubist play it at a conference some years ago using a wide but shallow "cheater" mouthpiece on a euphonium, and it wasn't bad. An hour later I heard an excellent euphonium player and asked him to play the same passage. He sounded better.

But I certainly admire the way Alan Baer nailed it with the NY Phil a couple of months ago, on F tuba. (link was posted here.)

I am also surprised that no one has mentioned how well it lies for Eb tuba. I heard a Russian orchestra do it a few years ago; the tubist played most of the concert on a King BBb, but picked up a top-action 3-valve Eb tuba for the Bydlo and made it sing.

[djwesp]

Not a bright crappy (british) Besson sound.

Is this a joke?

[LoyalTubist]

Actually, the one time I played Pictures at an Exhibition, I thought about playing Bydlo on an eefer. The conductor said he was willing but the board of directors already had a euphonium player (trombonist) in mind.

As far as the Vaughan Williams concerto, the tessitura is a little lower. I played it for my Junior Recital on a CC tuba and I have heard it performed quite well on a large bore BBb tuba.

[RSMorgan]

A musicological cleanup, and an organological note:

When he commissioned this orchestration from Ravel, Koussevitzky was not yet conductor of the BSO. However, on the train from New York to Boston as he traveled to assume his new post there, he asked about the ability of the tuba player in Boston, as he had this wonderful new piece by Ravel. . .

While the length of the French tuba in C makes it a step higher than a euphonium, its bore was larger, and it commonly had 6 valves, both items allowing it to play the rest of Pictures--even the low stuff--appropriately, and not sound quite like a euphonium.

I've had the privilege of playing it twice--once many years ago, and poorly (I'd just gotten my B&S F), and once a couple of years ago quite decently, though not perfectly (still trying to prove my manly tubaness). I've considered it on euph, but even though my high chops are fairly transferrable to euph, I'm still more comfortable playing it on F.

Those days are gone, though. I'm just glad I had the opportunity to play Bydlo again one last time that couple of years ago.

Richard Morgan

[TubaRay]

It's all attitude. Either you prepare yourself properly with attitude, practice, context, instrument and mindset to play it properly and in concert with whatever orchestra you're with and under whatever the director wants, or you don't and shouldn't play it.

I believe this is largely true. Attitude is a great determiner(is that a word?) in life.

When you prepare yourself properly, it just happens like it should.

Again, this is mostly true, however, nothing is 100%.

Those who can, do; those who can't bitch about it on a forum.

This seems a bit harsh. There's nothing particularly wrong with discussing the matter. Discussing doesn't alway equal bitching.

[Chuck(G)]

Gee, it is as though no one read the very long thread that I posted about this a while back. (sincker, snicker...)

Chuck, no one will remember us when we are gone! Alas!

In my case, that's probably a good thing for the global collective (in)sanity.

Personally, I like to hear it played on horn, but that's a different orchestration. I've also wondered about what the solo would sound like on ocarina or nose flute. I just tried it on slide whistle and it's pretty interesting if you imagine the cattle to be a herd of crazed gerbils.

[windshieldbug]

What the earth would be like if "people on the internet" had created it:

Well, then it's a good thing that it's credited to Al Gore!

[MikeMason]

I think your taste will change the more you dig in to orchestral studies.I can't imagine those promenades,or Great Gate on anything but a big contrabass...JMHO...

[windshieldbug]

Gee, it is as though no one read the very long thread that I posted about this a while back. (sincker, snicker...)

Chuck, no one will remember us when we are gone! Alas!

It'll all be Bob1062's Party!!!

[tbn.al]

Gee, it is as though no one read the very long thread that I posted about this a while back. (sincker, snicker...)

Actually I almost quoted your thread instead of the outside source. IMHO it's a really neat piece of music, end of story.

[eupher61]

Yeah, those little French C tubas were dark as all get out!

you've never played one, obviously.