brass instrument pitch

[Kevin Hendrick]

... In the software field, when one runs across odd quirks or faults in design, a frequent explanation is "to be compatible with the installed base."

"It's not a bug -- it's a feature!"

[Leland]

What about teaching people to read music at concert pitch? What a shocking innovation!

The hard part would be taking someone between the various trumpet keys and French horn and expecting them to throw down the right fingerings relatively quickly. Piccolo trumpet, especially, would be a pain to read in its actual sounding pitch (same for string bass). And, it makes it easier to move people between the voices of their woodwind families.

It's a tradeoff, sacrificing unified note names for greater ease in switching personnel and/or instruments.

[windshieldbug]

I always thought that for the amatuer player who would want to play along in church etc. C trumpets, C clarinets and C melody saxes, etc. would be ideal. The performer would not have to worry about transposing etc. Unfortunately tradition has been so entrenched that it would probably never be feasible. But it would be interesting to see if there would be a market for such instruments. If they could be made inexpensively, they could be possible.

In the last part of the ninteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth makers did EXACTLY that; one could buy a Bb cornet which converted to C for the purposes of reading vocal and piano music. I have 2 Conn "vocal" Wonderphone cornets (made 1907 and 1908) which can be quickly changed between C/Bb/A, high AND low pitch; in fact, all 3 valve slides have markings for where they should be set for each pitch. So rather than being new, we have "lost" that tradition!

[SplatterTone]

I always thought that for the amatuer player who would want to play along in church etc. C trumpets, C clarinets and C melody saxes, etc. would be ideal. But it would be interesting to see if there would be a market for such instruments. If they could be made inexpensively, they could be possible.

ken k

I recently bought the wife a C clarinet which is now her favorite because she can read from un-transcribed music. One sees plenty of C trumpets running around these days.

But one still keeps returning to the original question of why B-flat? One doesn't see any tendency to that in the renaissance or baroque; I know of no stringed instruments that even have a b-flat string (ignoring the chromatic instruments). Do you suppose it could be something as simple as when the prototype, experimental model was made, it happened to be in B-flat?

[MaryAnn]

What about teaching people to read music at concert pitch? What a shocking innovation!

The hard part would be taking someone between the various trumpet keys and French horn and expecting them to throw down the right fingerings relatively quickly. Piccolo trumpet, especially, would be a pain to read in its actual sounding pitch (same for string bass). And, it makes it easier to move people between the voices of their woodwind families.

It's a tradeoff, sacrificing unified note names for greater ease in switching personnel and/or instruments.

I continue to be baffled by people who would love to come play BBb tuba in the brass band but who say, "Oh but I can't read the clef." Well DUH why don't they just learn the clef? I just don't get it!! Yeah the first two or three clefs may take some time to get used to, and when learning a new clef it might be necessary to write in some fingerings for a while. But really, we can all read CAPITALS and italics and a bunch of different weird fonts for English... and frankly my dear I don't see the difference. It appears to be a matter of attitude rather than ability.

MA

[corbasse]

I continue to be baffled by people who would love to come play BBb tuba in the brass band but who say, "Oh but I can't read the clef." Well DUH why don't they just learn the clef? I just don't get it!! Yeah the first two or three clefs may take some time to get used to, and when learning a new clef it might be necessary to write in some fingerings for a while. But really, we can all read CAPITALS and italics and a bunch of different weird fonts for English... and frankly my dear I don't see the difference. It appears to be a matter of attitude rather than ability.

MA

Yup, it's all about education and attitude. The kids here have to learn more than one clef before they even touch an instrument. It doesn't bother them, it's just something to learn.

[Allen]

Out of politness, I have been refraining from making what seems like an obvious comment. Now that corbasse and MaryAnn have commented, I'll say it: The whole notion of "transposing instruments" seems brain-damaged. Since there is so much more to playing an instrument than just the fingerings, the only advantage to "transposing instruments" is assisting amateurs in playing several instruments equally badly.

Regarding clefs, one should keep in mind that even beginning pianists read both treble and bass clefs -- gasp! -- simultaneously! If a tubist can read treble clef, it opens up a huge world of music, including lead sheets (which have the melody and chord symbols for songs). After a while, it even seems more natrual to play a melody written in treble clef, and a bass line written in bass clef. Indeed I'll do something like that when I arrange for myself: I'll write the melody sections in treble clef, and the bass/accompaniment in bass clef. That way, I can be reminded of the rather different styles I have to use in the different sections.

Sometimes I think I may being unfair to others who profess difficulty in learning new fingerings and clefs. However, I seldom hear them mentioning how much work they put into learning new things.

Cheers,
Allen Walker

[Lew]

Out of politness, I have been refraining from making what seems like an obvious comment. Now that corbasse and MaryAnn have commented, I'll say it: The whole notion of "transposing instruments" seems brain-damaged. Since there is so much more to playing an instrument than just the fingerings, the only advantage to "transposing instruments" is assisting amateurs in playing several instruments equally badly.

...

I believe that the reason for transposing music when written for different instruments was primarily for the purpose of making it more readable. That is, to allow the majority of the notes to be written without a large number of ledger lines either above or below the staff, not to make it easier for one to play different instruments using the same fingerings. .

[TubaRay]

I believe that the reason for transposing music when written for different instruments was primarily for the purpose of making it more readable. That is, to allow the majority of the notes to be written without a large number of ledger lines either above or below the staff, not to make it easier for one to play different instruments using the same fingerings. .

Actually, there is more than one reason for all this transposition "stuff." You are quite correct in giving the reason of eliminating excessive leger lines. HOWEVER, there is the reason prominent in the brass band area which makes switching from one instrument to another a much easier task, WHICH ALSO accomplishes the elimination of so many leger lines. I believe the main reason in this area is one of ease of switching instruments.

None of this addresses the reason why instruments aren't always written as C instruments. This one has not yet been completely answered in this thread. I'm interested in seeing if I can wait for that, or will I have to research this myself. Being somewhat lazy, I believe I'll wait and see if someone will do the work for me. That way I can spend more time practicing. LOL

[Dan Schultz]

I always thought that for the amatuer player who would want to play along in church etc. C trumpets, C clarinets and C melody saxes, etc. would be ideal. ....... But it would be interesting to see if there would be a market for such instruments.

There is virtually NO market for C saxes. My wife is a sax player and owns a 1923 Conn C melody sax. Her mother bought it new in 1923. I keep it in pristine condition just because of the sentinmental value. Otherwise, you can pick nice ones up for under a $100. You're right... the C key is wonderful for church music and regular piano scores.... but no one seems to care. Sad.

[Joe Baker]

Since there is so much more to playing an instrument than just the fingerings, the only advantage to "transposing instruments" is assisting amateurs in playing several instruments equally badly.

For some of us amateurs, that's the best that can be hoped for!

After all, the vast majority of musicians are amateurs, and can use a little help. This is just one way a written part can help those of us who lack professional technical abilities to somewhat overcome those limitations, leaving us at least a little bandwidth to try to turn those notes into music. IMHO, that's a good thing.
________________________________
Joe Baker, who will take all the help he can get.

[Allen]

I believe that the reason for transposing music when written for different instruments was primarily for the purpose of making it more readable. That is, to allow the majority of the notes to be written without a large number of ledger lines either above or below the staff, not to make it easier for one to play different instruments using the same fingerings. .

Although transposing instrument parts can certainly help to minimize ledger lines, there is a very traditional way of doing that: use different clefs, as well as 8va, and 8vb. For example, the C clef can appear on lines one through five (called, respectively, soprano, mezzo-soprano, alto, tenor, and baritone clefs). Historically, the G clef has commonly resided on lines one or two (french violin, treble clefs), and the F clef has resided on lines three or four (baritone, bass clefs). I'm sure there are others I don't know about.

At least when using different clefs instead of transpositions we can readily know what real notes we are playing. Otherwise it seems that, switching among instruments, one fingers the keys, blows into the instrument, and is surprised by the note that comes out.

Ah well, this is all academic. Traditions aren't going to change. Jazz musicians are probably the only sax, clarinet and trumpet players to read at concert pitch (in addition to the traditional transpositions).

Cheers,
Allen Walker

[Leland]

So there's still the question -- why Bb? Why not C? Why was Bb adopted in the first place as the "default" key for many instruments?

(I've already given my thoughts anyway, but just trying to move things along)

[corbasse]

So there's still the question -- why Bb? Why not C? Why was Bb adopted in the first place as the "default" key for many instruments?

(I've already given my thoughts anyway, but just trying to move things along)

I still think it's about playability and sound. Some instruments simply sound and play better when they're a certain length. As mentioned before in this thread, a lot of (wood) wind instruments aren't pitched in C, in sofar you can speak of "being in X", they just read in C.
The habit of writing and reading the horn and trumpet (and clarinet) parts in C and writing the desired key above it developed in the late 18th/19th century. Before that the horn and trumpet parts were written in concert pitch, but with a choice of clefs (anyone of those mentioned above). The players had to figure out which crooks to use for themselves.

[Rick Denney]

...and frankly my dear I don't see the difference. It appears to be a matter of attitude rather than ability.

Maybe you aren't seeing enough. Some people have an aptitude for certain kinds of arithmetic transformations and abstractions in real time, and others don't. Those who pick up instruments that require lots of those transformations, such as horn, who have no aptitude for it often end up playing other instruments or quitting music performance altogether.

It took me quite a long time to learn F tuba. It was not just a matter of "picking it up", and it was a solid year before I was comfortable with the instrument. I had to treat it like a different instrument altogether before I could make headway--if I tried to make a transformation of what I already knew, I could not keep up with the music. It was difficult enough for me that while I'm proud that I actually accomplished it, I feel little motivation to go through it again.

Some of us are just slow about some things.

On the other hand, there are abstractions I can see clearly that absolutely baffle other people, and I have learned not to think them stupid or lazy because they can't keep up on those topics without a lot of extra work.

It's a little like skinny people thinking fat people are too lazy to exercise and eat well (which, by extension, is like saying that skinny people are skinny because they are not too lazy to exercise and eat well, and we all know skinny people who eat horribly and sit on the couch all day). Sometimes it's true but not always. It's easy to be complacent about our gifts, but we should admire rather than complain about those who, despite NOT having those gifts, work very hard to achieve some level of ability, usually doing so in addition to the work they do where they really are gifted (and thus able to support themselves doing it).

Perhaps the definition of "gifted" is the built-in desire and motivation to devote the learning time, but if that is true, I have this feeling that the vast majority of folks put in that time young in life when learning new abstractions is easier. Those people I know who say that it's all about clefs and if we would just understand clefs it would all be easy, crossed those bridges in their music education at about age 20 or before. I was learning calculus and physics at that age, heh, heh.

Rick "who still had trouble with calculus" Denney

[ThomasDodd]

...and frankly my dear I don't see the difference. It appears to be a matter of attitude rather than ability.

And how do you propose to change the attitude?

I do think you slightly wrong though. different clefs are more like different languages.
If you'l look, you'll see that children can pickup multiple languages easily, and the older one gets the harder it is.

Rick was off on the age a bit, I think it's younger than 15 to be easy. Look at places where multiple languages are taugh in elementry school. The kid do well, and are proficent as long as it's used.

I took piano lessons well before I picked up a horn. I lerned both treble and bass clef. Then I left trebble clef alone for years while playing bass instruments. But I recently went back to trebe clef for Drum Corps. It duid come back to me quickly. I should have continued to use it. Last year I started learning tenor clef. And it is much harder than back when I learned the other two. Had I learned tenor and other clefs way back, it'd be much better off, and it would have been easier.

As to "transposing horns" I say BS. Again, in Drum Corps, I played a GG bugle. I tried o reade a Bb tuba part. Bu it stunk. I'd see a Bb on the page, so my lips tried to play a Bb. The closest pitch was a B, but the intended pitch was a G. Or a written Db was one partial too high, and came out Db instead of the intended Bb.

Maybe it works OK for single stem (Bb to C) but not for 1.5 steps(Bb to G) and I suspect that 3.5 steps (Bb to Eb) would be just as bad.

[Lew]

What about teaching people to read music at concert pitch? What a shocking innovation!

When I was in England it was explained to me that small amateur bands have always had problems finding musicians for every instrument...It's true today and it was true a hundred years ago! One of the reasons a British Brass Band reads everything in treble pitch is simple.

Band Member: Oh no, Mr. Conductor, No tenor horn players showed up to rehearsal today!

Conductor: Here Billy Cornet player, take this Eb tenor horn and fill in!


Also, what Rick said (translation mine)- not every musician in the world has a masters in music, they just want to play.

This makes perfect sense to me except, playing a brass instrument is about much more than using the right fingerings. I believe that what you stated was the intent of the way British Brass Band music is arranged, but if someone is a tuba player, and hasn't played baritone, they will have trouble playing the right note even though they may know what it should be. Buzzing a middle C on tuba feels very different from buzzing a middle C on baritone or euphonium. The same goes for a trumpet player trying to play tuba, or even baritone. I know that when I first tried to play my double bell euphonium for tuba Christmas, I had a lot more trouble buzzing the right note than playing the right fingerings.

Having everyone (except for the bass trombone) play the same type of music helps eliminate one potential problem, but it doesn't make musicians interchangeable.

[Leland]

Having everyone (except for the bass trombone) play the same type of music helps eliminate one potential problem, but it doesn't make musicians interchangeable.

If many trumpet-like instruments are interchangeable for one musician, than one musician can be interchangeable (within reason) between different instruments.

I wouldn't be able to play trumpet particularly well, but I would be able to fill in on a 3rd or 4th part if the group really needed it. It's different, but not impossible.

[windshieldbug]

Having everyone (except for the bass trombone) play the same type of music helps eliminate one potential problem, but it doesn't make musicians interchangeable.

No, but it does make it quite a bit easier to do so. I started out playing trumpet, and over the years gradually moved my down to a more regal instrument. I don't believe Rose is implying that interchange is so easy, but even if you've studied another instrument for a while, when one is not worried about transposition it frees you up to concentrate on making music. Rick's point about becoming fluent is another good one. When my chops straightened themselves out, I moved back up as a sideline, playing in a small pro cornet band, whatever they needed to fill out the piece (Bb, Eb bass, euphonium, tenor, alto, cornet) with antique horns I had been collecting over the years. Bass clef I had covered, but having treble clef transpositions for to read for some of those instruments just meant that I could spend more of my time worrying about making music since a lot of the performance was at sight.

[Chuck(G)]

My own opinion of this whole thing is "it depends where one's mind lives". That is, the "first principles" learned and the mental model of the world that has been developed.

I remember reacting with horror when a tuba player next to me said that the way he read music was that first line was 12, first space was 2, etc. For him, the process of translating a written pitch to a note name was something like "second space is 1 and that particular 1 is C". I can't imagine the contortions that he'd have to go through to sing moveable-do solfege.

I think hurdles in musical reading are mostly side-effects of first principles learned. If you learned to read music by playing trumpet, the mental ties to a Bb trumpet to musical notation are probably pretty much cast in concrete and reading cor anglais or clarinet in A notation or viola will be mentally stressful. Yet, composers cheerfully scribble these parts without much effort on manuscript paper.

My observation of middle-school band teaching methods seems to tie fingering to notation with key signatures just representing a form of persistent accidental. While it may get students going quickly, it's a lousy way of teaching first principles of music and will ultimately prove a hindrance later on.

It's been shown that learning two languages when you're young makes learning other languages later on in life much easier. I suspect this is a matter of first principles learned--that there's more than one way to express an idea (e.g. nouns can be declined; adjectives can have gender case and number and word order may or may not have an effect on meaning).

There are those who have wonderful seemingly intuitive mechanical or mathematical senses. Again, I suspect the facility largely stems from a well developed mental model and the ability to draw direct relationships to things already learned in the context of this model.

What I don't understand is musicians.