EEb as do-it-all horn?

[muttenstrudel]

A divisi Eb/BAT section can be very, very satisfying...

It's not exactly the same but in most German wind bands – especially in the South – it is common to have one, two, three BBb contrabasses and one or two Fs to mostly double the bass line up an octave. This way you get the fat bottom and a nice and clearly contoured upper octave bass line. Particularly while playing outside whithout amplification you actually can HEAR a bass line and not only an undefined oompah-oompah mumble sound. And THEN it is really fun to play!
In other words: An EEb can define a nice hearable bass line as well as an F. but for the fat bottom sound I think a contrabass is right choice.

[tuba.bobby]

York Preference Eb Tuba was a very nice acquaintance...

Besson (already then owned by courtois) bought them just to put'em out of business

Better than 981 in every aspect....IMHO

The york is a nice instrument, it has a silky sound that the Besson doesn't, no doubt something to do with its larger bore, but I do miss that clean sound of a 981...

[Lectron]

If it wasn't due to my deep involvement in Brass Bands, I'd have to say a C is the do it all horn.

Problem is all the 'funny fingering' as a lot tends to be written in rather flat keys
Ab and Gb not unusual. Not saying it can't be done, but intonation gets a tad
challenging

[Wyvern]

Which is the best 'do-it-all horn' very much depends on the nature of the majority of your playing. The low register will be more open and easier with CC, but at the same time high register will be more secure on EEb.

I have just done a comparison recording playing the same low excerpt on 6/4 CC, EEb and 4/4 CC and was amazed listening back how full the Eb actually sounded down low, although when playing it felt more difficult.

I enjoy playing CC a lot, but would not want to play say Bydlo, or the Vaughan Williams using such, but an EEb can be used to play virtually anything, even Wagner Ring - I have done so in the past before I had CC.

So in my (British) opinion the EEb is the best 'do-it-all horn' - although better still to have choice to choose the most appropriate tuba for the job - which is (if you will excuses the commercial) where Chinese tubas come in, allowing players to have a choice of horns without breaking the bank!

[tuba.bobby]

Didn't Nigel Seaman do everything on his Eb? As a professional?

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I have just done a comparison recording playing the same low excerpt on 6/4 CC, EEb and 4/4 CC and was amazed listening back how full the Eb actually sounded down low, although when playing it felt more difficult.

I think that if you listen to all three instruments played solo, they could well seem close, when there is nothing else to compare them to. The problem (for me) is when playing in a large ensemble (as in a concert band), on an 983 Eb (as the only tuba), with other LOUD instruments competing to be heard, I sometimes feel the output is inadequate.

I do think that it is really impossible to have ONE do-it-all horn, because of all of the diverse musical situations we can find ourselves in. If you play mostly large, and medium ensembles, a 4/4 CC/BBb is probably the best choice. If you play mostly quintet, a small CC, F, or an Eb would be good choice. If you play mostly solos (How many of us qualify for THAT?), then an Eb or F is probably best.

[Wyvern]

Didn't Nigel Seaman do everything on his Eb? As a professional?

I believe he did. Mark Carter (Mr.Tuba) told me he try to persuade him to get a CC, but Nigel said something like no conductor had ever said the sound of his EEb was not enough, so he did not see the reason to add a CC.

And for American friends who may not know, Nigel Seaman was Principal tuba in the BBC National Orchestra of Wales for 33 years

[Steve Inman]

I play in a good amateur quintet that occasionally gets paid for our services. I play in civic theater orchestras, community band and a church orchestra. I play in a 12-piece brass ensemble around Christmas time.

My experience has been primarily with a 186-4UCC, a Besson 983Eb, a couple of small F's (Amati 6V and 621), the Conn 56J CC and the Yamaha YEB-381 (5V) Eb.

I found:

3/4 F's seemed too small for my quintet.
186 worked well for everything I played, but was more work in the higher quintet passages.
I didn't like the air resistance from the 983, or from any compensating Eb I ever tried, which made this horn too much work for me in the lower register.
The Conn 56J works well, but I'd prefer a 52J for quintet, I believe.
The Yamaha Eb works very well in quintet, and can be heard in any of the groups I play with. It is easier in the upper register than my CC tubas have been, but takes more work to get a big sound with more than about two ledger lines below the staff. Although the Eb tubas project well enough to be heard, I don't believe they are adequate for the breadth/depth of sound that I would like to have in the larger groups I play in. (disclaimer -- I don't believe I play particularly loudly / powerfully)

As there are a few other tubas I've owned in the past that are not on the above list, I believe that if there was an easy-to-play*, single, do-it-all tuba, I would have found it by now. For those who are not troubled by the compensating Eb's low register "feel", the 981 might be the closest Eb to a do-it-all tuba. The 2040/5 would be MY personal choice for this horn, unless I could find a well-in-tune 4V monster Eb and add a 5th valve to it.
(*the key to this discussion, imo)

I think a very few Eb tubas might work as a one-tuba solution. But I think you'll probably find that also owning a contrabass tuba will make playing with larger groups more enjoyable, due to less work needed to generate a bigger sound, and in playing pieces with more low register passages.

My experience, fwiw...

[UDELBR]

This used to be one of Steve's Eb tubas (although he doesn't list it in his post): an HN White from the year zero.



And this is what it turned into:



Probably the closest thing to an all-around Eb I could imagine. 50cm bell, 19mm valve set (ex-Hirsbrunner). I've used it for Tchaikovsky symphonies without complaint. Eb can be an all-around instrument.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I think that, if you think about it, there is a significant difference between playing a tuba in an orchestra, and a concert band (I can not speak to a brass band).

Being able to balance a reasonably good brass section of an orchestra (10 players), is a lot different than trying to lay down a bass line, that can be heard with an ensemble that has 8 trombones, 6 saxophones, 12 trumpets, and 4-5 percussionists!

While an orchestra can also get loud, most of the instruments that share the stage with you, produce a relatively transparent sound, when compared to the brass instruments.

[Bob Kolada]

This used to be one of Steve's Eb tubas (although he doesn't list it in his post): an HN White from the year zero.

That's gotta have been the cleanest 100+ year old tuba ever; you monster!!

Off to see if I can grab a valveless 981 copy somewhere!

[Steve Inman]

This used to be one of Steve's Eb tubas (although he doesn't list it in his post): an HN White from the year zero.



And this is what it turned into:



Probably the closest thing to an all-around Eb I could imagine. 50cm bell, 19mm valve set (ex-Hirsbrunner). I've used it for Tchaikovsky symphonies without complaint. Eb can be an all-around instrument.

Intriguing... more, please.

Indeed -- referred to as merely "Mr. White" between Uncle Beer and I. I found this tuba in Indianapolis close to 20 years ago, and used it as my first transitional horn between BBb and Eb. But alas, it was only a 3V Eb, I didn't know Sam Gnagey at the time, and Sam was only starting into his tuba business back then. Evidently, this old H.N. White has a desirable main bugle shape, and I somehow ended up in email conversation with Carl about this horn, which was eventually sold and shipped to The Netherlands, where he worked his magic on it. IIRC, he first converted it to CC, but liked it better as an Eb, so he converted it back. THIS is what I think of when I talk about a 5V Monster Eb being the ideal one-tuba solution!

[Bob Kolada]

Big Eb Kings are kosher? The last (only ) one I played had thee worst intonation of all time. Even my otherwise slick playing medium King has it's own interesting intonation.

Steve, have you played a Kanstul Eb yet? Not my favorite Eb ever ever, but much nicer than that Conn C you got. Also, hi Steve!

[opus37]

The Kanstul 66 is the easiest playing Eb I've found. I think you owe it to yourself to try one and see if if fits your all around needs. I think it will.

[Steve Inman]

@ Kanstul 66 Eb comments:

I'm intrigued by the front action model, but I'm a little concerned about the smaller bore size. How is the low register with this model? Similar to a compensating Eb? Similar to a 186BBb? Open and free blowing? How is the intonation overall? (I suppose I should go search TubeNet, to see what has been reported about it so far.)
I am glad to see a manufacturer bring out a bigger Eb, so I'll certainly have to try it if I can find one.

{also ... howdy, Bob...}

Cheers,

[Mojo workin']

@ Kanstul 66 Eb comments:

I'm intrigued by the front action model, but I'm a little concerned about the smaller bore size. How is the low register with this model? Similar to a compensating Eb? Similar to a 186BBb? Open and free blowing? How is the intonation overall? (I suppose I should go search TubeNet, to see what has been reported about it so far.)
I am glad to see a manufacturer bring out a bigger Eb, so I'll certainly have to try it if I can find one.

{also ... howdy, Bob...}

Cheers,

The Kanstul 66 is the easiest playing Eb I've found. I think you owe it to yourself to try one and see if if fits your all around needs. I think it will.

From these two posts, it has definitely caught my interest. I am picturing a more nimble, slightly more focused, CB50 kind of a horn. I owned a Canadian Brass, I liked so many things about it. I felt that it was capable of doing it all. Sounded a bit tubby in a quintet when I heard a colleague play his with his quintet.

Can the Kanstul 66 handle 70-85 piece orchestra work?

[PhilGreen]

For those who are not troubled by the compensating Eb's low register "feel", the 981 might be the closest Eb to a do-it-all tuba. The 2040/5 would be MY personal choice for this horn, unless I could find a well-in-tune 4V monster Eb and add a 5th valve to it.
(*the key to this discussion, imo)


My experience, fwiw...

I'd second Steve's comments. 25 years of playing in or around the UK's top brass bands had made me believe that the 981/982 "experience" was the only one worth having. Why bother pulling slides to get stuff in tune when your tuba can do it for you? I'd been involved with Gerhardt Meinl in the late 90's when we developed the Courtois 181 for brass bands, spending many happy hours in their Geretsried factory.
I played in a pretty proficient semi-pro quintet and played with many of the UK better freelance orchestras and my 981 did it all. Why change?

However, in October last year I commissioned a band arrangement of "Play that country tuba, Cowboy" to play at the UK's Brass In Concert contest and thought it would be novel, if not unusual for the audience, to play it on a rotary tuba. I also commissioned some artwork to go with the performance via the large screen in the hall - my avatar is one of the pictures.
I played it at 3 contests in 2010, on a 1960's B+S 4 valve, a Starlight and a Norwegian Star, kindly lent me by Mark Carter.

All of a sudden something strange happened - I could play low notes, admittedly sharp, with the same (minimal) resistance as I could play in the stave. With a little bit of slide pulling I could even get these notes in tune! It was an Epiphanal moment for me.

Earlier this year I road-tested the Starlight and Norwegian Star - both great tubas. I could rattle out stuff on the Starlight that I thought I was past playing and the NS made a beautiful sound with the quintet. However as soon as I played the 2040/5 I fell in love with the dark sound it helps me make, plus it's centre and flexibility in the high register.
I've now played in all the combinations I normally play with (BB, 5tet, 10tet, Orch) and it's been brilliant in all cases.

I tried a CC when I was choosing my new instrument, in fact did quite a bit of playing on a prototype Miraphone that Mark is working on, but as I tend to play pretty high stuff, through choice, quite a lot, I found it too much like hard work - although I would say that the CC had the "nicest" sound of any tuba I've ever played.

Long story but I think it sort of demonstrates my take on this subject.

[opus37]

From these two posts, it has definitely caught my interest. I am picturing a more nimble, slightly more focused, CB50 kind of a horn. I owned a Canadian Brass, I liked so many things about it. I felt that it was capable of doing it all. Sounded a bit tubby in a quintet when I heard a colleague play his with his quintet.

Can the Kanstul 66 handle 70-85 piece orchestra work?

I don't think I could handle a 70 -85 piece orchestra with my 66T, but the right player may be able to do it. I'm not particularly a loud player so someone with more volume might manage it. This may be a test we should challenge Kanstul to take up. I find the Kanstul 66 horns very well suited to solo, quintet, brass bands and smaller orchestras. As far as being in tune, I only have to lip up the low Eb. That's likely an operator inherent flaw. Everything else seems in tune according to my Korg tuner.

[Steve Inman]

Doc - I acquired a Kanstul EEb ( 66T - 4 valves top action) about a year ago. It's got a sound to die for. For me, it fills my British Brass Band and most quintet needs quite well. My playing mate in my Brass Band has a Willson EEb and and I've tooted it enough to say that with confidence that it is MUCH more open and powerful in the low ranges. It would require some real effort (and talent) to use my Kanstul as a low range "do it all" horn but the Willson easily has that capability.

This is the quote I read that causes me to wonder if the Kanatul is as strong as I would prefer in low register passages.

Certainly willing to be persuaded,

[opus37]

Well, it seems that you have to just try a Kanstul, a Wilson and a 981. From this very long thread, there is consensus that a Eb can be a do it all horn and these 3 seem to have the most recommendations for being able to do it. I think you will find differences in sound and capabilities of the horns, but one of them will likely meet your needs. Oh, and then you can work on finding the right mouthpiece.......