Audition Tips...

[quinterbourne]

If you play Beethovens "Piano Sonata No. 14 in c# minor" in db minor, it would sound different. It's not about what keys you push down.

But the question is... that even if a C# scale sounds different from Db scale (which is debatable) does that make the C# scale a different scale from Db?

For example, if I played a C major scale with a very bright thin sound... then a played C major scale again with a full, dark sound... they would sound different... but they'd still be the same scale.

My point is just because they may sound different doesn't necessarily make them different scales.

[ubertuba]

If you play Beethovens "Piano Sonata No. 14 in c# minor" in db minor, it would sound different. It's not about what keys you push down.

How would it sound different? I don't understand.

[SplatterTone]

Not to mention e-double-flat minor. Now THERE'S a key with soul!

[MartyNeilan]

Actually, there is a difference between the key of Ab major (4 flats in the key signature) and the key of G# major (1 double sharp and 6 sharps in the key signature)
and
a difference between the key of E (4 sharps) and the key of F flat (1 doubleflat and 6 flats), though....

Most decent amateurs can sightread in the keys of Ab and E with few, if any, missed notes. Most decent amateurs (and even some pros) cannot sightread in the keys of G# and F flat without missing at least some notes. We found this out the hard way in a church orchestra / band I used to play with, when playing pieces by a certain boneheaded arranger that obviously didn't know how to use Finale.

[quinterbourne]

If I were doing an audition, competition or something... and they said "please play two major scales of your choice" could I then play Bb major twice and then say that the first time was a Bb scale and the second time was an A# scale? No. They are not different scales... but they have the potential of sounding differently based on the musician playing them.

What I'd like to know is how many people practice C# scales separately from Db scales? Mentally, they would be different.

[ubertuba]

What I'd like to know is how many people practice C# scales separately from Db scales? Mentally, they would be different.

If you're just practicing the major scale pattern starting on a particular note, and the pattern is memorized, does it really make a difference what you call the scale? Does the name change anything about how you play it?

I'm seriously curious because my thoughts have always been (and by always I mean the year and half I've been practicing scales with dedication) that you train your body and your ears to play the scale well, with proper intonation and all that good stuff. I don't really think about notes when I play scales; I have the fingerings memorized and the sound of the scale in my head.

Of course this is all seperate from reading and playing music in different keys. I understand that seeing different notes for the same pitches makes a big difference in that situation, but I want to know what everyone thinks is the difference when you are just running the scales, like for some auditions.

[Captain Sousie]

-- . -- --- .-. .. --.. .. -. --. / .. ... / -... --- .-. .. -. --. --..-- / -... ..- - / .-.. . .- .-. -. .. -. --. / .. ... / . .- ... -.--

-.. --- -. .----. - / -.-- --- ..- / .--- ..- ... - / .-.. --- ...- . / .--- .- ...- .- / -... .- ... . -.. / -.-. --- -.. . / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - --- .-. ...

... --- ..-

[MartyNeilan]

Actually, there is a difference between the key of Ab major (4 flats in the key signature) and the key of G# major (1 double sharp and 6 sharps in the key signature)
and a difference between the key of E (4 sharps) and the key of F flat (1 doubleflat and 6 flats), though....

Most decent amateurs can sightread in the keys of Ab and E with few, if any, missed notes. Most decent amateurs (and even some pros) cannot sightread in the keys of G# and F flat without missing at least some notes. We found this out the hard way in a church orchestra / band I used to play with, when playing pieces by a certain boneheaded arranger that obviously didn't know how to use Finale.

I understand your points, Marty. Unless one practices in sharp keys, it can be a real task reading that stuff. I never said a person shouldn't do that, but it's really splitting hairs for high school kids, and even a lot of college students.Doc

But, here's the kicker - how many people practice major scales with double flats / double sharps in them (like G#, D#, F flat , and B double flat)? Such keys are little more than theoritical exercises and having double flats or sharps in a major key signature borders on the ridiculous.

[lgb&dtuba]

-- . -- --- .-. .. --.. .. -. --. / .. ... / -... --- .-. .. -. --. --..-- / -... ..- - / .-.. . .- .-. -. .. -. --. / .. ... / . .- ... -.--

-.. --- -. .----. - / -.-- --- ..- / .--- ..- ... - / .-.. --- ...- . / .--- .- ...- .- / -... .- ... . -.. / -.-. --- -.. . / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - --- .-. ...

... --- ..-

For the Morse code impaired. it said -

"Memorizing is boring. But learning is easy don't you just love java based code translators?"

Wasn't worth the effort.

Jim "No, I didn't use a translator" Wagner

[Captain Sousie]

-- . -- --- .-. .. --.. .. -. --. / .. ... / -... --- .-. .. -. --. --..-- / -... ..- - / .-.. . .- .-. -. .. -. --. / .. ... / . .- ... -.--

-.. --- -. .----. - / -.-- --- ..- / .--- ..- ... - / .-.. --- ...- . / .--- .- ...- .- / -... .- ... . -.. / -.-. --- -.. . / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - --- .-. ...

... --- ..-

For the Morse code impaired. it said -

"Memorizing is boring. But learning is easy don't you just love java based code translators?"

Wasn't worth the effort.

Jim "No, I didn't use a translator" Wagner

You are right, it wasn't worth the effort. Having the wierd morse code randomness, such as earlier in this thread (hmm, I cant help but notice that almost all of it has been removed...fancy that), sort of takes us back to the old days of the KarlMarx posts...like this.

Bloß noch ein Peckhorn Mosquitolini style! Gottlieb davon wrote "Les Petits Riens". Großer Arsch für little gas.

Carolus Marximus

(hmm, I can't help but notice that almost all of the morse code prior to mine has been removed...fancy that)

Sou

[Rick Denney]

After five minutes, she looked at them cross-eyed, looked at me crossly, tossed the sheet on the floor, and said, "I'd rather just figure them out myself. It will be much faster." She knew them before she went to bed.

When I finally decided to learn at least the basic scales, I also just figured them out, and I have always ghosted scales on the steering wheel, etc.

Even without ever having seen the connection to the written scale, though, the drilled patterns come readily to the fingers when musically appropriate. When there is a fragment of a G scale in the music, for examples, the fingerings remember the G scale because that part of the scale is what sounds correct. I have never burdened by mind with: "That's a fragment of the G scale starting on the fifth degree". The fingers just do it.

Funny thing is, I thought I was cheating in the way I learned the scales. My motivation was that our band director was taking the band through the circle of fifths for the major scales as a warm-up exercise, and I didn't want to admit that I only knew about half of them. I was quite surprised to discover that even though I learned it the way I did, it still worked.

Rick "who needs to do it again for the rest of the scales" Denney

[ubertuba]

What do you mean by "ghost"? If you mean do the scales with just your fingers, I do that all the time (now that you mention it I guess it did help me a lot). Isn't "ghosting" (if I interpreted you correctly) a form a memorization, or commiting patterns to muscle memory, or whatever you call it? It seems like I agree with you Bloke, but I don't understand the distinction you made between memorizing and learning, and I'd love for you to explain.

I totally get what Rick said too:

Even without ever having seen the connection to the written scale, though, the drilled patterns come readily to the fingers when musically appropriate.

That's what I was trying to say in my earlier post; I don't see the need for connections to written notes when I'm learning scale patterns.

I love this kind of "science" of learning stuff!

[ubertuba]

I didn't mean ghosting as a problem, although I still don't know exactly what Rick and Bloke meant by it. It sounds like you're talking about when a note doesn't speak when you try to attack it, while I was talking about moving my fingers in scale patterns with no instrument at random times, like when I was holding my girlfriend's hand once (she loved that!)

[tubaguy9]

If you know the instrument well enough to know where all the notes are, "ghosting" isn't a problem.

If you know the instrument well enough, along with knowing a fair bit of jazz, you could fake all the way through the scales Do only every other or every third note, ghost the rest, and Whala! You got a scale!

[Rick Denney]

...I was talking about moving my fingers in scale patterns with no instrument at random times...

I think that's what Bloke meant, and it's certainly what I meant. Anything else on the steering wheel would be...unnatural.

There's value in such drilling. Even in thinking through musical issues, I frequently use time in the car to listen and practice my musical approach to something. I learned the trick when I raced cars. Track time is limited, and I would practice my responses to a range of situations mentally. Those pathways get formed and then don't require conscious effort when the time comes. Of course, you have to mentally practice the correct thing.

There's no replacement for lip time, of course. But it's hard to play tuba or even buzz a mouthpiece will driving down the Pennsylvania Turnpike (my next task).

Rick "who finds mental practice harder with 1. age and 2. the explosion of external stimuli" Denney

[rascaljim]

Getting back to the origional topic (hooray tubenet...)

Usually on my way to an audition I tend to listen to my favorite orchestral performance recordings. I try to find the ones that sound the most musical to my ear. (a couple I listen to regularly while en route are the Cleveland Symphony Fantastique and the Chicago Bruckner 7 recordings)

If you go in to perform an audition after listening to some loud *** brass piece that is only impressive to you because it's loud... you're mind will be concentrating on that fact and there's a good chance that you'll play like that (and lose). If instead you go with the most musical performances ever.... you're chances of gearing your brain to playing musically goes way up. Audition panels/ judges are always more impressed with musicality over how loud you can play.