Tuba sin?

[djwesp]

Okay, here we go:


1. Do not follow people's advice on here. Period. You may use it as a supplement for personal advice you recieve from people that KNOW your playing and TEACH you.

2. Good tuba playing is good tuba playing. The same people that comment, "Alan Baer is awesome, but his sound is a little to dark for me!" are the same people that are (1.) not good players and like to undermine excellence or (2.) the type of individuals who are constantly looking for a reason to dislike someone who has a different concept of playing.

3. F, Eb tuba playing is not a gimmick. It isn't some european orchestra "special" instrument. Don't be fooled by people who encourage you to play a certain keyed instrument just because that is what they do and everyone in the past has. Most key preference has to do with location (in my mind) and little to do with one key being better than another. F tuba players (in countries that don't make excuses) can and DO have EXCELLENT low ranges. Just because the horn doesn't facilitate that low range easily, does not mean it is incorrect. It is simply a battle you have to fight. You fight a different battle on each axe you choose.

4. THIS IS MY COMMENT TOWARDS THE ENTIRE SITUATION. Take the money you would spend on an F tuba and apply it to a ****Tuba Teacher**** (heck, two if you would like!). I think a bigger battle you should fight should be at least making the Symphonic All-State Band. Since you have yet to achieve this, that should be your primary goal. That serves as a very good gauge of your playing ability at your age. That gauge seems pretty lacking currently.

5. "Tuba teachers on a collegiate level will expect you to play CC" No. Tuba teachers on a collegiate level will (a.) expect you to sound good and be able to perform the correct literature and (b.) expect you to be able to play ALL the keyed horns with some decency. No teacher I have met (minus one in Indiana *cough*) will have a problem with you playing YOUR horn in YOUR key. Excellence is Excellence.


Wes "sorry for the spehlung, i'm about to go move a piano and am in a hurry" Pendergrass



****In your area, here are some good teachers to start with.

1. Louis Young. A great tuba player, great guy, and a great teacher. Conway, University of Central Arkansas. (try some of his bbq)

2. Andy Anders. Former Collaborator of the Tuba Source Book, former ASO Tubist, TUBA (now ITEA) former officer, OUTSTANDING tuba player (who had to give up playing for medical reasons). Russellville, Arkansas Tech University.

3. Ben Pierce. Falcone winner, outstanding euphonium player (plays tuba well too), solo recording artist. Fayetteville, UofA (a long drive, but worth making once)

[sloan]

Okay, here we go:


1. Do not follow people's advice on here. Period.

So...we can stop reading here.

No, wait...that would be...

I'm confused.

discuss among yourselves while I consider all the implications.

[djwesp]

Okay, here we go:


1. Do not follow people's advice on here. Period.

So...we can stop reading here.

No, wait...that would be...

I'm confused.

discuss among yourselves while I consider all the implications.

I was hoping someone would pick up on that.

[andrew the tuba player]

Ok. I can see where you're all comeing from. But, There are great pros out there that use small horns. Like Roger Bobo and Oystein Baddsvic. (and i am not in ANY way implying that im anywhere clse to as good as them). Plus, I've played an Eb before and it felt as stable (range tone etc) or more than my Mirafone (or any of the big horns for that matter). I've always thought the sameas djswep. As long aas you can get the range tone and control and everything else out of it its ok. Almost all the orchastras and alot of the ensembles ive seen have used Ebs. And, theyve all sounded great to me. I've always liked the sound and feel of a smaller horn.

as always, thanks for the advise (and i am takeing it. I havent gone out and looked for anything yet)

Oh and thanks for the link to the 20j. But, i already have acces to one and dont get to use it to much because of the bell.

[jonesbrass]

Andrew, do whatever you want. Don't listen to the TNFJ. Explore, make some mistakes-more than likely they won't be fatal. Life is good.

[Rick Denney]

Ok. I can see where you're all comeing from. But, There are great pros out there that use small horns. Like Roger Bobo and Oystein Baddsvic.

Wes and others are correct that you can play musically and successfully using an F tuba. But he's also right that in college, they'll expect you to play them all. But you knew that.

Bobo, of course, uses a small tuba for solo recital work, but when he was in the LA Phil, he still used a contrabass as his main instrument.

Yes, that may be a regional thing, but that's the region you live in. Keep that in mind while you decide.

Baadsvik is a marvelous performer, and he has a sound to die for on his Eb tuba: Colorful, clear, fat, and full of energy. If you can make that sound, play whatever you like. Maybe we can learn from it.

Look, you can play a hosephone if you want, but at the end of the day you had better be able to deliver the goods if you want to be a performance major and ultimately a pro. If you can't, then your instrument choices will be called into question. If you hear a teacher asking you why you play an F, you can probably take that as a sign that he's missing something in what he's hearing that he thinks you could deliver on a contrabass. File that away as a note for the future.

Wes is also correct that you should seek out the best possible teacher now. That will do more than anything. Oh, man, do I now wish I'd had good lessons when I was in high school.

And if you take Wes's advice to ignore all advice, then start with his, heh, heh.

Seriously, don't ignore any advice--take it all into account and consider the reasoning behind it. How (or whether) it applies to you only you can determine, but with so much confusing input it won't be easy to do that. A high-end teacher will help there.

One reason you got such energetic advice on not selling the Miraphone is this: Most of us at one time or another have given up or not appreciated an instrument, to our later regret. My band director in high school borrowed a Miraphone from Rice University for me to use, and I was impressed, but I did not appreciate the opportunity it presented or take advantage of it. Fifteen years went by before I could play an instrument as good again, and what did I do while I had that Miraphone? Did I take lessons to see how far I could progress while I had access to it? I only wish I had. Most of us just don't want you to have to feel that regret. But it is your choice, and we may be wrong.

Whatever you choose, do what it takes to make it work.

Rick "no need for haste" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

Almost all the orchastras and alot of the ensembles ive seen have used Ebs.

[Rick Denney]

Almost all the orchastras and alot of the ensembles ive seen have used Ebs.

Hmmm. Missed this one until Marty's post. I agree with his question mark.

The only place in the world where you could make this statement is in the UK, plus the more recent members of British Empire. Even in England, there are examples of high-end performers using contrabasses for big works going back nearly to the time when the standard British orchestral tuba was the Barlow F, not the modern Eb.

In the U.S., the instrument used most often in orchestras is a C. American tuba players usually use an F when they need a bass tuba (such as for Berlioz, etc.). Eb is much more rare, though that's just a matter of fashion (and fashion seems to be changing at the moment). Bb is more rare still, and also mostly a matter of fashion (not changing at present). The perceived or real differences between Bb and C and to a lesser extent between Eb and F are argued incessantly, but that isn't concerned with the choice between contrabass and bass. You can buck American fashion, but if you do, you'll still have to deliver the sound if you want the gig. American orchestras do have a different sound than British orchestras.

In Europe, F and C, or F and Bb are the pairs most often used. Japan follows American practice for the most part. Most of the videos I've seen of German orchestras have shown the tuba players using enormous rotary Bb tubas, but I'm attracted to the videos of big works like Shostakovich, where the tuba player would normally use a large instrument.

This may not affect your decision, but make sure your facts are straight before you depend too much on them. Maybe the only orchestras you've seen are British orchestras, heh, heh.

Rick "just supplying facts" Denney

[windshieldbug]

Yo, folks!

The deal is, if someone asks for advice (or validation), then some very smart people are going to give their best opinions.

The greater number of mature opinions will come from people who have already learned a lot of this the hard way, and hope to spare people their pains.

If you want some other response, go to the Tubists Gone Wild! chat line.

I came to the tuba FROM euphonium. Ever since, the hardest thing for me to play is not high stuff, but low Low LOW.

I'd say that if Andrew has good access to a euphonium, to knock himself out and have fun. But not to assume that because he already has a 186 in high school, it's not that good a horn. Au contraire, it's one of the best. Work on musicianship, count your blessings, and see how far this will take you.

$0.02

[andrew the tuba player]

Yeah, I know. The mirafone 186 5uc is one of the best. But, thats also an opinion. Not to bash it. I love the thing to death. But, there are a few things id like different.

[windshieldbug]

Go wild on the euph. Learn things like phrasing. Circular breathing. Expression. Impress people with your technique, not your hardware.

[JCalkin]

OK, I'm gonna throw my hat into the ring and offer you some more advice to toss onto the pile, but with a different approach.

Remove the 186 from the "for sale" list, for now.

Go to a place where you can try a lot of bass tubas (Dillon and Baltimore come to mind). I know it's a long trip, but it's more than worth it.

***Take with you: the 186, a tuner, a metronome, and a stack of real contrabass literature you're already familiar with, especially the bread-and-butter band and orchestral lit we're all talking about that a CC tuba is so good for.

Play a few F and Eb tubas, narrow the field to 2 or 3 you really like, then take them into a room with the CC. Play the low lit on all of the horns, using the tuner to check the pitch and the metronome to check facility, particularly in the low range. I realize the fingerings may hold you back a little if you are not used to them, but take the music in small bits to make it more manageable.

*** BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF regarding how manageable the bass tuba(s) would be in real world situations regarding crazy low register fingerings (not just low for the bass, but also low for the contra) and intonation. Ask yourself if you only had one horn to play, would the bass REALLY be a viable alternative to the contrabass?

Next step, and this is important: GO AWAY FROM THE STORE WITHOUT MAKING AN IMPULSE BUY. Go home. Think it over for a while. Also consider the $$$ factor. If you want a bass that will be a good all-around horn, particularly with pistons, you will likely need to pay more than you will get for the 186.

If you then decide you really want to make the switch, then you can do the purchase through the mail or go back to the store. If this seems like a lot of work to choose a horn, it is. But then, finding the perfect instrument(s) is a difficult thing for all us tuba operators to do.

Just throwing another approach out there.

-Josh

[iiipopes]

(What? No "clapping hands" or "thumbs up" emoticons? )

[andrew the tuba player]

thanks for the advice. I may be borrowing an Eb soon. And if not i think i know where i can go to try one out for a little bit.
As far as the Euphonium goes, I really like it to. I learned how to play it last year and now i own a baritone so i can still practice it as much as i want. Its not as good as a euphonium but it works. I played a euphonium solo at solo and ensemble and got a 1 (on a 1-5 scale 1 best 5 worst).So yeah. I always said if i couldnt play tuba The euphonium would be my next choice.

[windshieldbug]

(What? No "clapping hands" or "thumbs up" emoticons? )

[andrew the tuba player]

thanks for the advice.

[Rick Denney]

...***Take with you: the 186, a tuner, a metronome, and a stack of real contrabass literature you're already familiar with, especially the bread-and-butter band and orchestral lit we're all talking about that a CC tuba is so good for....

For example: Shostakovich 5th, Prokofiev 5th, Wagner Ride of the Valkure, and things of that ilk. I'd sure hate to have to rock and roll on the low Eb in the Shostakovich with an F tuba. I can play the notes--that's not the problem--but it's hard enough to move the appropriate quantity of earth with the Holton.

Rick "whose low range sucks enough as it is" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

I'd sure hate to have to rock and roll on the low Eb in the Shostakovich with an F tuba. I can play the notes--that's not the problem--but it's hard enough to move the appropriate quantity of earth with the Holton.

That low Eb may actually be misleading to test - it will be an open pedal on the Eb and a 1st valve pedal on the F, so at first try it may seem easier and louder (albeit much brighter and edgier) than the valved note on a CC.
Notes in the low C to Gb range will really show if your bass tuba has the stuff. The quint Valve on my Cerveny really opened up low Bb and below. Low C and low B had a mild case of German F Tuba Syndrome but could still be very workable.

[Rick Denney]

That low Eb may actually be misleading to test - it will be an open pedal on the Eb and a 1st valve pedal on the F, so at first try it may seem easier and louder (albeit much brighter and edgier) than the valved note on a CC.

Yes, you're right. But when you take it into the big hall where that sound can develop, you may have more of a bass trombone effect than you really want. Loud, yes. Maybe even intense. But deep or big? No.

Rick "okay, try the low E, or F#" Denney

[eupher61]

Frankly, that sub-fundamental Eb (on F tuba) speaks so much better for me than any CC tuba I've ever played. Believe it or not, it and the E natural and F really rock on my Weril. Too bad it's not a 6/4 or even a 4/4...