What in F tuba design makesthe low range stuffy (or not)

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Re: What in F tuba design makesthe low range stuffy (or not)

Post by MaryAnn »

bloke wrote:Why try to explain this with physics and stat's when the entire phenomenon of "false tones" (who knows...?? possibly a closely-related topic...??) is - to date - not completely understood nor explained by anyone.
You don't get it either. Technical people do this to learn from each other and sharpen their thought process through trading commentary. The fact that it is *not* understood is why the discussion is enjoyable.

It was the math guys who came up with three-phase electricity.

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Re: What in F tuba design makesthe low range stuffy (or not)

Post by Rick Denney »

Dr. Sloan wrote:No matter what convention you chose, the bell end is the opposite of the mouthpiece end. Brasses are open at one end and closed at the other. Open ends behave differently than closed ends.

Oh, and when you build the spreadsheet...the taper is only part of the story - you might find the effects due to the flared bell and the mouthpiece wreak havoc with the theory you've put forth so far.

One more time...my understanding (see the links I posted, above) is that the effective length of the bugle contains 1/4, 3/4, 5/4, 7/4, ... complete waves (see the diagrams). This gives you a harmonic series with a, 3a, 5a, 7a,... The flared bell changes the effective length of the bugle as a function of wavelength - this affects one end of the spectrum; the mouthpiece affects the OTHER end of the spectrum. Combined, these two effects compress the series of resonances to (close enough for musical work) create a sequence x, 2f, 3f, 4f, 5f,... (where 'x' has no simple relationship to f, or a). If you buzz 'x', you get no help from higher harmonics (which won't resonate) so it will sound and feel "different". If you buzz 'f' (along with it's harmonics), the tuba will emit only 2f, 3f, 4f,... - which will work out OK because your ear and brain will fill in the phantom 'f'. [Doug Elliot claims that conical instruments resonate at 'f' - I would *really* want to see confirmation on that, but note that ears don't count].
Ken is right and that explains some nagging results of my simplistic arithmetic, for one thing why my bugles always seemed to be shorter than the wavelengths I was measuring. When playing a low C in free air (in standard conditions), the pulses associated with the fundamental will be 17.23 feet apart. If they were a different distance apart, it would not be a low C. When playing middle C, the pulses will 4.31 feet apart. I know that much. But how to square that with the requirement that there be an odd number of quarter waves in the bugle (as shown on the diagram below), so that the bell is always a quarter wave out of phase with the lips? If the speed of sound was constant inside the tuba (with respect to the frequency of interest), the pulse from the lips would be 17.23 feet behind the previous pulse from the lips. That would put a pulse a little beyond the bell at the same time the next one is emerging from the lips.

Image

We assume the speed of sound is the speed of sound is the speed of sound. But in a conical bore, pressure, and therefore density, is not constant, and the wavelength therefore changes as you go through the instrument.

Image

The math for this is the same as it would be for, say, a microwave antenna that uses a feedhorn reflector, with an important exception--the feedhorn is usually many multiples of the wavelength. That doesn't mean the math is easy. Dr. Sloan is a math professor, and I am not. I'll defer to him, in hopes that he is willing to explain rather than just challenge my attempts at explanation. Note also that the conical taper in question is straight. The taper is not straight in a tuba (or other brass instrument)--it widens at an accelerating rate as you near the bell. Fletcher and Rossing described a taper shape that was mathematically easy to describe (a Bessel function), and they also tied that to a cylindrical section. But the resulting math still depended on a lot of partial derivatives. Even I have a point where my eyes glaze over.

But I did get this right: The interaction between the fundamental and the overtones is the story. The resonance just cannot be described in terms of the fundamental only.

There is a symbiotic relationship between the sound and shape of a tuba. The shape affects the sound, but our definition of good sound results from the shape. Those two migrate from design to design over the course of many years. I suspect few of us would be interested in performing using a Wieprecht F tuba, except maybe for historical purposes. I have played of that design one for a few minutes. Without considering any possible defects in that instrument, it sounded to me like a euphonium played with a tuba mouthpiece, the fourth valve down, and with all the water key corks removed. Nothing matched really well. After 170+ years, the mutual interaction between performers and makers has resulted in tubas that do indeed resonate very openly and clearly and seem well matched. But one characteristic of a feedback mechanism is that with a little nudge it can go off in unpredictable directions. There have been times when tubas have just hit the mark, and those are the designs that persist, and bring that feedback process back to a given path. Personally, I think the Symphonie-style B&S F tuba was one such mark.

I sat down and played my F tuba last night, needing soothing after being drubbed by Dr. Sloan. If the low C on that instrument is hard to manage, I've gotten past it, and I think I can play it to the same level of mediocrity I play all other notes. It doesn't feel any different, and it doesn't sound any different. And this is a classic, German rotary F tuba. Why was it different before? Because it was not what I expected it to be.

On the subject of computer modeling, etc. There are two basic approaches to dealing with challenging arithmetic. One is to work through all the challenges while remaining in the domain of abstract math (by abstract, I mean using variable names instead of actual numbers). That requires having a mathematical model of every important effect. Once the model is constructed, supply it with givens and solve for the unknowns. The problem with this is that the math may turn out to be extremely difficult once you include all those effects, such that solving for the unknowns or optimizing over the range of important values becomes intractable.

The other approach is to approximate the math using numerical methods. Instead of trying to work out the math completely in the abstract, we turn it over to arithmetic at some point and use computers to run so many numbers that we can see and optimize the result even if we can't solve for it in the abstract.

There are computer programs that calculate the relationship between intonation and taper design, and the instrument manufacturers do use them. The problem is that intonation is not the only objective. Also, the taper design is subject to so much distortion to make a practical instrument that the model becomes difficult to manage. So, they start with something, and then proceed to a range of experiments with performers to tweak the results. Another problem with the computer program is that the taper that produces the best intonation or the most resonance on the notes of interest may not produce the characteristic sound--the sound that has developed from the feedback between performers and makers for 170 years. The characteristic sound has two components--harmonic content and articulation--that make it characteristically a tuba sound.

That leads us back to Bloke's comment. It may turn out that the characteristic sound we prefer for an F tuba is actually unsuited to an instrument that is 12 feet long, especially if we are going to use the same mouthpiece we might use for an instrument 18 feet long. So, in attempting to accommodate that desired sound, issues emerge. Repairing those issues causes other issues to pop up. We are trying to achieve an instrument with the agility of a euphonium with the depth of sound of a contrabass. The instrument is halfway in between, but we use a contrabass mouthpiece, a contrabass-sized bell, and a contrabass-sized valve machine. The old F tubas that really were halfway in between a contrabass and a euphonium were just not asked to play low.

I have a tuba that came to me as an Eb high-pitch instrument from the late 1800's. Even after fixing the leaks and using heavy oil on the valves, the range below low Eb is stuffy and unresonant. It would pretty happily play any pitch you buzz, without a sense of clear resonance at all. It sounds and feels like a water key is open. A recent discussion on Ken's similarly aged Eb helicon has revealed that this was not uncommon. I played a Distin Eb tuba at the Army conference and while it wasn't quite as bad, it still had that characteristic. That was the state of the art at the time.

Rick "who has avoided this trap in the past and should have avoided it this time" Denney
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Re: What in F tuba design makesthe low range stuffy (or not)

Post by sloan »

bloke wrote:Why try to explain this with physics and stat's when the entire phenomenon of "false tones" (who knows...?? possibly a closely-related topic...??) is - to date - not completely understood nor explained by anyone.
I think you just answered your own question: explanations are desirable when explanations are not yet available.

Perhaps you prefer discussions where people offer up explanations of things that have already been explained?

I think we need someone with
a) access to a large number of tubas
b) the ability to play them all
c) the ability to judge the quality of the sound
d) a recording device (optional)
e) a waveform analysis tool (optional)

to start collecting answers to these questions:

I) What notes can you play on the open bugle (including "false tones")
II) When centered for best tone, which of these are sharp, flat, VERY sharp, VERY flat, etc.
III) (optional) what are the frequencies of each of these notes
IV) subjectively describe the QUALITY of each note
V) (optional) show the frequency-response plot for each note

I would be especially interested in plots for:

1) the "pedal"
2) the 2nd partial
3) the "false tone"
4) for F tubas only, the low C

because I suspect that these plots would tell you just about anything you really needed to know.

The over-achiever might duplicate this for every valve combination.

For all the students out there planning on the academic route - there's probably a number of theses/dissertations to be had here. Note that you don't *really* need a strong Physics background to gather the data and analyze if from a musical point of view. It doesn't require any special lab equipment that's not readily accessible off-the-shelf. it *would* be nice to find a collaborator in the Physics department (every Physics department I've ever seen has at least one or two high-quality amateur musicians who would love to help out). It's really just a case of systematically gathering the data and looking at it for trends. Much more useful than "The History of the Brass Quintet in early 20th century Iowa".
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Re: What in F tuba design makesthe low range stuffy (or not)

Post by Donn »

sloan wrote: to start collecting answers to these questions:

I) What notes can you play on the open bugle (including "false tones")
II) When centered for best tone, which of these are sharp, flat, VERY sharp, VERY flat, etc.
III) (optional) what are the frequencies of each of these notes
IV) subjectively describe the QUALITY of each note
V) (optional) show the frequency-response plot for each note

I would be especially interested in plots for:

1) the "pedal"
2) the 2nd partial
3) the "false tone"
4) for F tubas only, the low C
Given that the low C has been the identified problem, is it possible that you'd miss some important data by otherwise focusing on open notes?
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Re: What in F tuba design makesthe low range stuffy (or not)

Post by sloan »

Rick Denney wrote:

But I did get this right: The interaction between the fundamental and the overtones is the story. The resonance just cannot be described in terms of the fundamental only.
Absolutely right! Tubas are not pure-tone generators (and a damn good thing, too!)

In the beginning, it is "obvious" that octaves "must" line up (let's not get into 5ths, or 3rds...)

The first level of enlightenment is that...they don't. Everyone with a pair of working ears discovers this...sometime.

The second level of enlightenment is that...THERE IS NO REASON WHY THEY "SHOULD" LINE UP. It's nearly impossible to find any realistic model of a tuba-shaped object where theory predicts a perfect harmonic series <insert your own definition of PHS>

The third level of enlightenment is an appreciation for the collaboration between brass bangers and lip buzzers that evolved what we have now - pretty good approximations of a usable series of tones. (play, in sequence, an 1890 Eb, a 1970 Eb, and a 2009 Eb to see that the series is converging)

The fourth level of enlightenment is an understanding of the (very pretty) mathematics that describes what's really going on.

And then there is "tradition". As it turns out, people's ears don't particularly LIKE sounds produced by *perfect* (according to some too-simplistic model) instruments. One need only have lived through the electronic "music" of the 1960's and '70's to know that. As with people, musical notes are prized as much for their imperfections as anything else. There are results in both vision and hearing that demonstrate the utility of adding just the right amount of randomness. Instruments with "problem intonation" are highly prized for their "unique tone quality".

If the harmonic series is too good (!?!), some will complain that the sound is too "vanilla", too "sterile". If it's TOO far out of whack, everyone will agree that it sounds bad. Somewhere in between, musical tradition has come to value a sound that has "color". Stipped bare, the color usually is the result of "imperfections" in the complete set of resonances.

Why are "false tones" false - and why do they sound "different". Get a waveform analyzer and study the entire spectrum. I suspect you'll find that the horn will give you the "false tone" - but not the full complement of overtones. I think that's one example of Rick's "interaction between the fundamental and the overtones".

So...do you prefer Yamaha...or Besson....or Alex'? WHY?
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Re: What in F tuba design makesthe low range stuffy (or not)

Post by sloan »

Donn wrote:
sloan wrote: to start collecting answers to these questions:

I) What notes can you play on the open bugle (including "false tones")
II) When centered for best tone, which of these are sharp, flat, VERY sharp, VERY flat, etc.
III) (optional) what are the frequencies of each of these notes
IV) subjectively describe the QUALITY of each note
V) (optional) show the frequency-response plot for each note

I would be especially interested in plots for:

1) the "pedal"
2) the 2nd partial
3) the "false tone"
4) for F tubas only, the low C
Given that the low C has been the identified problem, is it possible that you'd miss some important data by otherwise focusing on open notes?
First - note that I included the C in 4)

Second - baby steps first. Let's understand the quality of ONE bugle (the one with no valves down) first. Then we can move on to the (related, but different) questions of all the other valve combinations.

But, if you are vitally interested in the C on an F - by all means plot the spectrum. But, also plot the spectrum of a nearby note that you think "sounds right" - so you have something to compare it with.
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Re: What in F tuba design makesthe low range stuffy (or not)

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sloan wrote:For all the students out there planning on the academic route - there's probably a number of theses/dissertations to be had here. Note that you don't *really* need a strong Physics background to gather the data and analyze if from a musical point of view. It doesn't require any special lab equipment that's not readily accessible off-the-shelf. it *would* be nice to find a collaborator in the Physics department (every Physics department I've ever seen has at least one or two high-quality amateur musicians who would love to help out). It's really just a case of systematically gathering the data and looking at it for trends. Much more useful than "The History of the Brass Quintet in early 20th century Iowa".
This is a fantastic statement. If there were an interesting topic for a thesis or disseration, this would surely be it. Additionally, this paper, if done well, would have the ability to be published in numeros journals. If it were a joint paper, the Physics student and Music student could do well insofar that they could do a bit of conference touring for a couple of years as well. The Music student would possibly even garner some consultant earnings along the way. Alas, someone would rather further scrutinize the articulation markings of the RVW. I personally think it has a lot to do with the publishing "vehicle" attached to tuba players.
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Re: What in F tuba design makesthe low range stuffy (or not)

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DP wrote:
I was astonished to be told by a large federal space agency, when applying for a lowly GS12/13 slot 10-12 years
ago, that a graduate degree in Statistics is "not" (Applied) Mathmatics. :shock:
Well, that's correct, of course. I speak from authority because I have a degree..IN SCIENCE <name that cultural reference>.

When I was an undergrad, I got a degree in Applied Math. Probability and Mathematical (as opposed to cookbook) Statistics were both staples there, I think - along with the truly nasty stuff like Real and Complex Analysis and fun stuff like Game Theory and OR. I had to take a lot of hard core "Applied Math" stuff (at that time, when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, ApplMath was fighting to establish a separate identity and they were real strict about what it meant). But, of course, the only reason I was majoring in ApplMath was that that was where the two (count'em 2) Computer Science professors were located - and I was *really* doing a degree in CS (the fact that the school didn't have a CS department was a minor annoyance - but you have to understand that CS had just been invented and it was even weirder than ApplMath in the great scheme of things.

Since then, I suspect that the number of ApplMath departments has shrunk a bit, and the number of CS departments has grown.

While I *am* a proud member of SIAM (Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics), I must reject Rick's offer of a field promotion to "math professor". I'm just a humble CS professor. (my degrees are in ApplMath, Math, and CIS - but they all felt like CS at the time).

[I flunked out of Engineering - I took Thermodynamics and CS101 in the same semester...Thermo lost, big time - and every day for the last 40 years I've given thanks to the Engineering professor who gave me an F and showed me the door.]
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Re: What in F tuba design makesthe low range stuffy (or not)

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DP wrote:I was astonished to be told by a large federal space agency, when applying for a lowly GS12/13 slot 10-12 years
ago, that a graduate degree in Statistics is "not" (Applied) Mathmatics. :shock:
In some schools, stats is completely separate from the math dept. If you were to show up at a school like Brown and think you could major in applied math with the idea that it would be "applied" in the common term, it wouldn't.
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Re: What in F tuba design makesthe low range stuffy (or not)

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DP wrote: . . . lowly GS12/13 slot
:lol: :shock: :lol:
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Re: What in F tuba design makesthe low range stuffy (or not)

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sloan wrote:
DP wrote:While I *am* a proud member of SIAM (Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics), I must reject Rick's offer of a field promotion to "math professor". I'm just a humble CS professor. (my degrees are in ApplMath, Math, and CIS - but they all felt like CS at the time).

[I flunked out of Engineering - I took Thermodynamics and CS101 in the same semester...Thermo lost, big time - and every day for the last 40 years I've given thanks to the Engineering professor who gave me an F and showed me the door.]
My boss's undergraduate degree is in math, and he's also a CS guy. I can actually run rings around him in math, but your field promotion is based on the times I've tried to run rings around you.

And, yes, I deeply understand the difference between applied and mathematical statistics. I wandered into mathematical statistics in grad school, feeling invincible after having aced difficult OR and traffic theory classes. Uh, big mistake. I survived...just. And that was just one class. The math majors in the class snickered when they found out I was doing a Master's in engineering.

Thermodynamics--another story. I had a prof whose command of English was rather limited. It was six weeks into the course when I finally realized that "see pa pra" meant "steam power plant". I survived that one.

But differential equations was being taught by a grad student (no longer allowed, thank goodness). I had the privilege of a second attempt, this time with the professor in summer school. Hearing it from one who knew made the difference. Fear of having to take it a third time also provided motivation. It was the only A I made in mathematics after switching back to engineering.

I never had gaming theory, but I loved OR. As a traffic engineer, I can't run from probability and statistics, though I have (thank goodness) never had to derive such things as maximum likelihood estimators. I wish I had had time series analysis, which I've had to pick up (a little) since school, but complex math--you can have it.

Rick "noting that engineers just get a sampling of math" Denney
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Re: What in F tuba design makesthe low range stuffy (or not)

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Rick Denney wrote: Hearing it from one who knew made the difference.
Can I get an "AMEN"?
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