"downsizing" contrabass tubas...

[Michael Bush]

What if the chip has two read streaks on it...??

Are they "weird" too, like the green place? All weird colors on a chip mean the chip is staying in the bowl.

[pjv]

If I understand this correctly, i believe the roots of this conversation have to do with the tuba as an orchestral instrument and how that sound concept is changing.

The 6/4 tuba; a large tuba which lays down an enormous wide sound as a kind of mattress for the rest of the orchestra to lye on. Or jump on. Or sleep on. Whatever.

I think that tuba players themselves are moving towards tubas that have a bit more clarity in the sound and are less ever-present. A tuba that can blend into or underneath the sound of the orchestra as apposed to always being heard no matter what. A tuba whose articulation is heard just a bit better because the sound of that tuba is less massive.
Voila, the 5/4 tuba: the 6/4 tuba thats been doing some training, is a bit fitter and has learned not always to try to dominate the conversation.

[Donn]

If there is one type that seems like it would beat up the player, it's the type that is disconnected and that provides little feedback.

This suggests, does it not, that a forward facing bell puts its player at risk for this reason?

[pjv]

A front bell doesn't disconnect me from my sound anymore or less than an upright bell. I just need to localize my sound in a different place. Because the front bell points forward I often can allow myself to play much softer. Depending on the type of ensemble and/or the type of music most everybody's sound emissions will also be pointing forward, so a front bell can be very advantageous.

[Donn]

I envy your front bell setup. On my old Holton, I'm in an acoustic shadow behind the bell, so more of the volume and detail of the sound is lost at my end than is added at the listener's end, and there's considerable potential to play too loud so I can hear myself. (Unless I turn the bell to the side, where I guess it's slightly better than a normal upright.)

One peculiarity is that the effect varies for different notes. Some notes on this tuba shake the tuba, but a few do not, and with the bell forward, those notes are particularly weak from behind the bell. With the bell turned to the side, or if I face a nearby reflective surface, those notes turn out to sound pretty much like everything else. Apparently I'm playing partly by feel.

[bububassboner]

I think part of the trend to get something a bit smaller has more to do with edge than clarity for a lot of players. (My opinion so take it for what it is worth)

When we listen to some of the greats like Gene or Chris Olka, they can really get some edge and power in the low end. However this skill of having lots of edge on the 6/4 C isn't an easy one to get or maintain. So I think what has happened is that many players got those 6/4 tubas wanting that sound but realized how hard that can be, so they went a bit smaller. I think we can all agree that a Thor can easily achieve this edge. Hell the blokepiece symphony was designed to round out the low end of that horn.

There are some 6/4 tubas that can get that edge easily. The Gronitz and the Nirschl horns come to mind, but for most that is very challenging. I actually owned a 2165 prototype and my Nirschl at the same time. That prototype was so hard to get edge on. If that was my only 6/4 experience I also might have downsized.

I also totally agree with what Rick said about different types of 6/4 tubas. I do find my big horn to be more agile and easier to play than the two PT606 tubas we have at work, but it's also very light and I get a lot of feedback from it. To each their own.

[bisontuba]

So, bloke, has anyone offered to dump their Siegfried and sell it to you yet?

+1...

[Michael Bush]

WWBW is "dumping" one with a little messed up lacquer.

[Jay Bertolet]

I think Rick has it exactly right, though that is just a guess on my part since I haven't played on as many 6/4 tubas as most have. My 6/4 CC plays like every all purpose horn I've ever owned, just better. I can use it in just about anything (within reason) and I suspect that others have a lot more difficulty playing their 6/4s in multiple settings than I do. I read the complaints others have posted about using 6/4 tubas more regularly and I honestly don't have any of those issues with mine. Efficiency is amazing, dynamic range is amazing, and mine has almost no pitch issues at all. My guess is that it's just like anything else in our business. When you match the right horn with the right player, that's when things become a lot easier. As long as folks are willing to pay me to play on my 6/4, I'll keep doing it.

[JCalkin]

The majority of time I have brought a smaller tuba in recent years (college/community orchestra, large church orchestra) the bigger tuba was always requested.

I just don't recall any music director or choir director or community band director (hired for a rehearsal-concert / regulars-out-of-town situations) or small combo leaders or brass quintet colleagues EVER suggesting to me that I bring or should-have-brought any-tuba-in-particular.

I have. I recall doing the Mendelssohn Elijah (orch and choir) a few years back, and the principal bone asked if we could try to "lighten up" a bit through smaller equipment to get a slightly more "French" sound. He played alto, second bone brought a .525" tenor, and bass bone brought a .547" tenor. I brought a smallish F. At break the (choir) director called me over (unsolicited) and asked what we were doing differently. When I told him, he said "no, no... bring the biggest horns you have. I like a huge low brass sound." So away went the F and out came the big CC for the next rehearsal. First low brass chord: big thumbs-up from the director.

[pjv]

Every party needs a pooper

[Donn]

That makes sense, or am I making it too simple - "light" here more or less comes out "bright", and puts you more in front of the choir? I've never particularly liked the term "background brass", but we are what we are.

[Uncle Buck]

I think Rick has it exactly right, ...

Hey, here's a "thread-jacking" piece of free advice to all those 20-ish or younger board members who are looking to make a good impression on others: The easiest way to look and sound smart on TubeNet is to say something along the lines of "I agree with Rick."

[pjv]

I've always wondered why ophicleide parts are so often played on F tuba's when the ophicleide itself is a Bb tenor instrument. Right? Every time I hear this instrument my ears say "euphonium" and definitely not "f-tuba".

[LCTuba89]

I've played tuba in band for many years, but never in a orchestra as I was on string bass. I had played a 5/4 CC Melton for many years in the community band. The presence of the horn was great, but the intonation was horrid. I took the plunge and purchased a BMB 6/4 BBb tuba because I wanted a big horn that had similar intonation tendencies to the other BBb tubas in the group. The first rehearsal I used it was included in a section that consisted of a 3/4 Tempest BBb, a 4/4 Miraphone 186 - 5U BBb, and my 6/4 BMB BBb. Within 30 seconds of playing during rehearsal, the section got "the hand". The presence was overwhelming to rest of the ensemble, so I've made it a habit to not play at non divisi parts below mf. Not saying the BMB can't play softly but the 186 player and myself tend to play pretty strong so in this 50 piece group. I've always rested on softer dynamics even before the BMB came along to make it easier for the section to play soft. Nothing quite sounds like a 6/4 tuba and the presence is almost like a Gibson EB-0 versus the Fender Jazz bass sound of a 4/4 tuba. I think if one wanted the best of both worlds, a 5/4 would be the best compromise, just make sure you can play it with a manageable scale.

PS: It's worlds easier to get an edge on a 5/4 in the lower register while still retaining a great deal of fundamental pitch. The 6/4 can do it, but you won't have any lungs left by the time you're done.

[bort]

I recently had to rent a car for a work trip. I wanted a normal 4/4 size car, but all they had was a 6/4 sized GMC Yukon, so that's what I had to use.

I have to say, it was a lot of fun... for the first 2 hours or so. And when I got tired of this enormous lumbering truck, and realized I was still in the middle of Iowa... well, it wasn't so much fun to drive anymore. Nor was parallel parking, or awkwardly hoping that it would fit in a parking garage (it did, but barely).

Now, if I had a ton of shitt to haul around, it wold have been great. But for one person and a small suitcase, it was excessive.

[PaulMaybery]

I love the sound of the BAT - and not just that the sound is broad and diffused. There seems to be a certain quality to it, akin to turning up the EQ, that is hard to achieve on smaller horns. That sound is a rather developed concept that takes a little work and a lot of careful listening to pull off. In that regard I believe it will be around for sometime, though I imagine there will be those for whom that "lust" experience may dwindle.

On the other hand, there are horns that can achieve that same ambience (EQ effect). Just a few days back, the Wessex 5/4 CC "Wyvern" arrived after a long wait. To my delight there were certain advantages to it over the 6/4. Most of all it is in no way an "air hog." Those quirky intonation issues are either not there or so easily to deal with that they are not a problem at all. Lastly, the ambience of the sound is huge. Filling a large hall is no problem and the blend with the other brass is very easy to pull off. Some of my experience may be a result of having played on my current 6/4 now for over 3 years, and so the 5/4 is like taking off lead weights from your running shoes. I'm approaching 70 and lugging the BAT around is becoming a problem, though I try to never admit it to colleagues. So for me, it boils down to "bang for your buck" and in this case, at least the Wessex "Wyvern" delivers. There is only so much tuba sound that is necessary in an orchestra, and I understand in some situations that can be enormous. But, I'm not sensing that anything is really lost with such a 5/4.

After I get a chance to use it some more, particularly in a large 80 piece orchestra, I will offer a more detailed review. Suffice it to say, at this time, I am extremely pleased to have such an instrument.

[Alex C]

I really believe (regardless of whether 16" or 18" taper) they are more suitable for wind-band use, where the goal, often, is to imitate the sound of a string bass (albeit louder). Blowing the crap out of them (in order to achieve more clarity/definition and "burn" in the sound) defeats their purpose (and makes them sound ugly), imo.

Again, they tend to offer that "Harley Davidson" appeal... Tuba player's love lookin' at 'em and braggin' that they own 'em, but must - in exchange - put up with their quirks.

I may be dead by then, but I predict that - within a decade (after an impressive several-decades run) - the 6/4 York copy fad/craze (at least, where professional symphony orchestra use is concerned) will have seriously ebbed.

Assuming Arnold Jacobs is the model and the reason for the popularity of the 6/4 orchestral tuba, the sound-goal would never be a string bass sound. The York was lively and rich in upper overtones. Mr. Jacobs rarely played to his maximum volume, he depended on the color of his sound to stand out in the orchestra. The Holton was a copy of the York but never sounded as refined and was as different from a string bass as it could be. Overblow and you sound like ripping sheet metal.

Assuming the popularity of the 6/4 tuba is a holdover from the 1930's great American tubas seems more likely to me. Almost all modern BAT players get a very dark sound and play very loud to be heard. The direct ancestors would be the big Martin tubas, the Conn 2_-J's and 3_-J's. Put six BATs in a band and there is an immediate balance issue.

You may be right about the popularity of the BAT waning. For now, the market is hot and heavy.

[Wyvern]

I equate playing a 6/4 tuba like driving high performance car. Not many people actually need that high power, but it is very nice to have when more power is required.

Tuba wise, the weight of carrying around a 6/4 is a major consideration and if you don't need then you will make life easier with something smaller. However the fact that this thread runs and runs means just like high performance cars, 6/4 tubas generate a lot of interest and admiration amongst tubists regardless of if they actually need them or not.

You need to consider the group/s you play in and what will work and decide what size and tone of tuba works best in the overall ensemble sound. But remember that tuba that seems to project like hell to you behind the mouthpiece, may not actually sound out well to the audience - so qualified ears (or least a recording device) out front are vital in making an informed decision.

[Wyvern]

Who still manufactures "jumbo" sousaphones? Why not?)

Obviously no-one now makes (probably always a small market), but the reason people do not play is largely the huge weight. Not many people are prepared to have over 40 lb on their shoulder, but having played Jumbo sousaphones a couple times myself, the sound and projection is great. It is just that weight makes prolonged playing a test of the player's pain threashhold. I think if they were made lighter, such as in carbon fibre they would sell and maybe even become popular again. The bass foundation they put under a band is fantastic.

I equate playing a 6/4 tuba like driving high performance car.

Having owned five or six different German-made ones (pitched in C) and one US-made one (pitched in Bb), I would sorta describe it as the opposite.

maneuverability/response - sluggish
steering - off
flashiness factor - more so: when standing still

I was only really using the comparison regarding the 'power' and 'glamor' - not equating with manoeuvrability/response - although that a lot depends on the actual model of tuba concerned, rather than just size.

Personally I am not advocating 6/4, or downsizing. Rather use appropriate to your playing situation. As I have said elsewhere my own personal favourite tuba to play is currently the new Wessex Wyvern, at least in my orchestra - and that is 5/4 (some would say 4/4). But if I was supporting large concert band as only bass, then a 6/4 would be the best tool for the job.