Performance vs. Education

[james]

cool

[MartyNeilan]

Recruiting future band directors and then drilling them for four years to play a forty-five minute recital on one instrument, and studying each of the other instruments for (dividing a semester of "woodwind class" or "brass class" into segments) approximately one month per instrument is a terrific plan!

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that ALREADY part of virtually every music ed degree? (Along with lots of piano proficiency, conducting, music history, x number of ensembles, student teaching, and the same academics as everyone else.)

Been there, done that, got the paper, got the awards and honors (useless) now trying to get the job.

[james]

One year and quit, huh? I guess that's the old "college try". How admirable. That doesn't sound like someone with a strong passion to change things as you try to front in these few posts. Sounds like someone who took an easier road...."those who can't", maybe? Yes, there is validity to discovering you are in the wrong field and leaving. Actually, quite admirable if done in the right way. However, that should be your argument and NOT that there were problems you never EARNESTLY tried to fix and are so passionately complaining about later. ( I hardly consider one year in a job "giving it a chance to make things better")

Bloke, you sit on your podium and preach at us about how you have all the solutions to how OTHERS should fix a poorly run educational system.
If you feel the educational system is flawed, fine. Advise kids not to go to college because it has flaws and it is a shelter from the real world. I would have more respect for that than complaining (from a very safe and sheltered distance) about how it's flawed and how if you were king it would be perfect.

[ArnoldGottlieb]

Wow, I made a resolution to listen more and talk less (hardly any post's since jan 1st), and I guess I feel strongly enough to speak. I agree with Bloke 100%, as I usually do. My 2 best friends from college both teach High School in Connecticut. I occasionally coach their students, and talk shop. It amazes me what they do and don't do. A list of what they do (not nearly complete) would include: last minute instrument repair, breaking up fights in the hallways, going to meetings, running meetings of their staff (at least 20 for marching band), going to town functions, designing marching band shows, planning band competitions, planning band trips, waiting for parents who are late picking up their kids, opening the building for color guard practice, and I know they run band rehearsals also, but I'm not sure when. It seems to me a minor in buisness administration would be handy for a would be high school band director. Piano is a great sing along instrument for elementary school kids as opposed to say, the tuba. Conducting, oh yeah, they have guest soloist's in their bands so the kids can get really inspired when they hear somebody play. In case you're thinking these guy's weren't players, one of these guy's played gigs 4-5 nights a week while we were in school, many of them with me, when I started getting road gigs he realized that he was a "homebody" and as exciting as it sounded he wasn't going to do that. I'm sure he would have a career playing if he wanted it but he didn't want to travel, now he plays music at home with his kids and still probably plays 100 gigs a year. If a person loves their instrument they will play it, I'm sure many people on this board have jobs unrelated to playing and still find the time to play, no different for a band director. Peace. ASG

[james]

not his exsistence....his COMPLAINING. I know Joe is an older and well-respected person living in the real world with a very respectable job that serves many people. I myself respect him. However, he has a history of making outrageous life changing suggestions with a VERY egotistical tone just to stir the pot. Things he doesn't know about NEARLY as well as repairing/building/restoring instruments. I wish he aided the tuba community with repair related advice more than inciting flames. That would actually be USED in humble gratitude. I would humbly use the advice. I'm just embarassed I fell for his antogonizing post. First time I've actually bitten on one his flame-hopeful posts after passing on so many others that tempted me. I really think he gets off on it though.

[MikeMason]

it's not necessary to agree with Bloke's posts to appreciate them.Posts that provoke thought can be dangerous to your ignorance...

[james]

Ha!! Very funny

[TexTuba]

In regards to the whole learning every instrument: Don't they do this at VanderCook? This what I had once heard in passing and was wondering if anyone could verify this. Thank you!!

Ralph

[Tom Mason]

This is what I get for missing a few days for vacation...........

Has anyone thought of the concept that you are not really beginning a new instrument every time you pick up one if you follow Joe's theory?

To be a true beginner, you would have to relearn to read music as well as all of the concepts used to play an instrument. If you are seriously going into an undergraduate degree program as either an education or performance major, you should be able to use common tendancies toward each instrument played.

1. Single reed players share some tendancies within the realm of playing. Double reed players share some common traits as well. Flute playing usually takes a reverse course of embouchure.

2. Brass playing shares common traits as well.

3. Percussion playing involves common stickings.

4. String instruments....... Well, you would have to learn some more techniques........

5. Breathing practices as well as practice routines have common points.

The point is that there are some common traits that are shared within all of the instruments. You are not having to learn everything from scratch. Latch on to the similarities.

By the way, some of us who teach can also play. Not to anyone in particular, but there are a lot of playing situations that you can list that some of us teachers (as well as repair professionals) can say "been there, done that".

Tom Mason

[windshieldbug]

...Hey, I know some extremely high-profile professional symphony orchestra conductors who could in no way "win" a job on their "own 'major' " instrument in the backs of the appropriate sections in their own orchestras...I suppose they can't possibly be "musically expressive" enough to execute their assigned duties

And I recall a bunch who weren't (oh, I know, "Bitter, party of one, your table is now ready... ")

[TexTuba]

Hmm...what to put when just about everything has been put. I think it's important to learn every instrument you are going to teach. I'm not saying be great on every horn but be competent. One should know how to get a decent sound and learn the fingerings AND alternate fingerings on the different horns. You can not teach what you do not know. Just like there was a discussion a while back about the difference between "tubists" and "tuba players", what you can do in the band hall separates the TEACHERS from the BAND DIRECTORS. Any fool can wave a baton and mash down some fingerings, but a true teacher will show their students how to play their horn. End obscure, incoherent rant.

Ralph

[TMurphy]

<img src="http://tinypic.com/6h3rdy.jpg">

No relevant information to the thread, but the pic reminded me of how truly excited I am to be going to see Monty Python's Spamalot on Friday in NY.

[MartyNeilan]

Herr Bloke,
You never acknowledged my earlier post that got buried around the 3rd or 4th page during your debate with James. Most schools with a dececnt music ed program already do something similar to your suggestion, if not to quite that extent. As a Lee University Music Ed major I had:

1 semester of percussion lessons

1 semester of strings, divided into half a semester violin and half a semester cello small group lessons with the local experts in their field. (I already had extensive upright bass experience.

1 semester of single reeds, small group, split into time on clarinet, flute, and altosax. Los of one-on-one instruction with the teacher outside this class was available, and I utilized it.

1 semester of brass, divided into half a semester of private trumpet lessons and half a semester of private horn lessons with the local experts in their field.

1 semester of double reeds, taking private lessons from the local symphony guy on both oboe and bassoon.

1 semester of private voice lessons with a professional opera singer, 1 semester of classical choral ensemble under one of Robert Shaw's protege students.

4 semesters of piano proficiency, private lessons

6 semesters of tuba/bass trombone lessons (and 2 semesters prior at Manhattan School of Music to equal 8 total)

Plus 4 required semesters of each of theory and ear training and enough music histroy to make the toughest Al Queda fighter cry for his mommy.
And a ton of ensembles.
And the same academics as everyone else.

[MaryAnn]

Weelllll, lessee.

I think the idea of a band director's being a specialist in teaching band instrumentS is a good one. How to get there, I'm not sure. I play most instruments well enough to show a kid the basics, but not as well as I would if I practiced them for three years each (which seems to be my point of expertise. I may define "expertise" somewhat differently than you do.)

I also think that as a student, the thing that inspired me mostest of mostest was to hear someone play an instrument really, really well. Most of that occurred via LPs at the time; I did get to hear a real expert on occasion via symphony concert with soloist. My private teachers, even the best of them (before college) were uninspired even if technically good.

I do think that a high level of competence on an instrument IS required in order to dazzle, but I don't think a high level of competence is required in order to be musical. Musicality is innate; technique is learned. I never had any use for "music" lessons where the teacher told me how to play it musically "his way." I already like MY way, or I wouldn't already be doing it MY way. Lessons, for ME, are about technique, so that I can better learn to manipulate the instrument to play the music MY way.

As a continuing student, the thing that STILL inspires me mostest of mostest....is to hear a true expert on my instrument. Expert not meaning "technician" but "superb musician with the technique to play what he feels."

Where I went to college as a violin major, Indiana University in the late 1960's, the standards for performance majors and ed majors were considerably different. The curricula were also somewhat different. A performance major had six credits of lessons per semester, and was expected to practice three hours daily, although most did more than that. Ed majors had half that amount of lesson credit per semester, and were expected to do half the practice. The competency requirements to graduate were much higher for performance majors.

I would never, EVER tell someone to use music ed as a fallback degree in case performance didn't work out. If you don't have a real desire to be a band director, don't go there; no one will be happy, including you. When I found out I didn't like playing violin in an orchestra, I flailed about for a few years and then went back for an engineering degree. I'll point out that both a performance degree and an engineering degree are "technical" degrees in that they are not remotely related to liberal arts degrees.

I would last about one day as a band director. I'd either leave or get fired.

Two centavos.
MA

[MaryAnn]

Too many band directors have terrible time, can't tune, and have no musical thoughts whatsoever. Why give them 12 instruments to simply be mediocre on and never expect them to really master the MAIN ASPECTS OF MUSIC on one?
James-who believes someone who can accomplish what Bloke suggests is considered by everyone else as "very talented"....not normal

well, yeah, maybe. Read on. I have suffered through amateur band rehearsals with degreed conductors who could not count 5/8 time and phD's who could not hear the broad side of a barn. I've gotten into knock-down-drag-out fights with poeple who considered themselves very, very fine players and who also could not hear the broad side of a barn; did not know beats when they were vibrating the chandeliers with them. Or worse yet, think a chord "sounds funny" when played without beats.

These things, basic rhythm (how DO you put five beats between two bar lines?) and intonation (gee, what DOES a major chord sound like without beats?) should be taught in GRADE SCHOOL. Not high school, not college. These are basic-beginner music skills that anyone with a modicum of talent can and should be learning. When you get people graduating from college without these basic skills, and then some of THEM go on to TEACH college, you get the band director I referred to above, and brother we have lost all sight of anything resembling standards. As we have in most of the rest of education, but I digress to a different topic, that of what happened to how we are raising our kids, and where did we go wrong?
Enough, I guess.
MA, who agrees with Rick that I must be of "a certain age" where the youth appears unsalvageable from the git-go. Except for those few who still go out and play rings around anything I ever was or will be able to do.