Don't go into music!!!

[tubatooter1940]

Gee, you guys are cheering me all up.
One doesn't have to play tuba only. I would rather hire a person who knows a million jokes, shares (his/her) beers, with a tuba on a Tubatamer stand in front - with a bass guitar on a stand to (his/her) left and a six string on a stand to (his/her) right, who sings lead and backup vocals, owns a van filled with a hand truck and the world's finest p.a. system and is willing to schlep a Hammond B-3 organ with two wooden "Leslies" up six flights of stairs.

[tubasinfonian]

--removed--

[lgb&dtuba]

Folks, I'm only 25 years old, .....

MONEY ISN'T EVERYTHING!!!!

You are right in many aspects. Funny though. I can't seem get away with using anything else to pay my bills or my Taxes.

Or tubas.

[lgb&dtuba]

13 doesn't cover it any more. We need a number for Wade.

[windshieldbug]

13 doesn't cover it any more. We need a number for Wade.

21eb

No Tuba Left Behind.

[MartyNeilan]

Folks, I'm only 25 years old, but I can tell you this: MONEY ISN'T EVERYTHING!

When I was 25 I felt the same way. Now, at 36, I have a wife and three kids to support. A mortgage (finally! ) and 2 car payments. (Modest) student loan payments. Fortunately no tuba payments, unlike many of my online brethren. Takes more than a few grand a year to cover all that. If it didn't, I'd be on the first bus back to grad school as a 2-bah major.

[ASTuba]

I'm 27, and after 5 years as a successful Repair Technician/Teacher/Freelancer, I left it because I wasn't happy. I was making enough money to live, pay my bills on time, and to put a little away for future endeavors. I never thought when I graduated from repair school that I would be back in academia. I was done, happy to have my life and to start my career.

However, being happy is a very important thing. I don't think it can come at the expense of money, nor can money come at the expense of happiness. I think that there's a fine equilibrium that has to be maintained in order to do what we as musicians do for a living.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Excellent post, Wade, but I suspect it falls on the deaf ears of the college-age crowd.

Folks, I'm only 25 years old, but I can tell you this: MONEY ISN'T EVERYTHING!

Now I know why there are so many job offerings for orchestral tuba players that pay in the $5000-$15000 annually range - plenty of guys like tubasinfonian there to happily fill them. Hire them, pay them for a few years until they realize (the hard way) exactly what Wade was trying to tell them today, then hire another stud college graduate...lather, rinse, repeat.

I only have one disagreement with Wade's post...the university music programs aren't "failing at teaching" the truth about a career in music performance; rather, they dare not utter the truth for fear of upsetting their self-perpetuating music student machine. We wouldn't want those starry-eyed freshmen to know the truth about their career path, now would we?

Saying such childish nonsense about money is perpetuating the dangerous fallacy with which many musicians live.

Absolutely perfectly said.

Todd S. Malicoate
Delta Tau
1991

[NDSPTuba]

Elephant,

I think you were a bit out of line with tubasinfonian. He is right, in a nieve kind of way. Reality doesn't afford that kind of idealism, but at it's core there is a sort of truth.

Tubasinfonian,

I do remember quite well working professionally along side bitter old ( not really that old ) men in the orchestra. And thinking how much their attitude was being a kill joy for me. I loved every minute of playing in rehearsal or performance, and they wouldn't stop bitching about the fact they had to play another note. I hated their attitude. And it is really hard to find professional quality players that love to play and will find any reason to play. I could find lesser quality players that had that attitude but it really isn't as much fun playing when it sounds like crap.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Elephant,

I think you were a bit out of line with tubasinfonian. He is right, in a nieve kind of way. Reality doesn't afford that kind of idealism, but at it's core there is a sort of truth.

What does that mean? Tubasinfonian was right, just not in reality?

The elephant was right on target, and it's very refreshing to see someone with the stones to say it.

And it is really hard to find professional quality players that love to play and will find any reason to play.

I disagree that it's hard to find such players that love to play. They just expect to be able to make a living and not taken for granted just because of their passion for music. I don't believe there are any professional quality players who will find any reason to play at the expense of being able to live and pay their bills.

[Rick Denney]

A music degree is NOT useless unless you ONLY plan on performing..

Agreed. As long as the program is broadly based, with mathematics, languages, history, and science.

And imported engineers are not a result of a lack in engineered degreed people in the US. It is MOSTLY because the pay for outsourced of "imported" engineers is much lower than that here.

I suppose it depends on your field--it may be true in part for something like software development. Your statement is NOT true in my field, which deals in the three-dimensional world. A large percentage of our new hires are recent immigrants from all over the place. We would definitely hire more American-born folks if there were any to hire. It's not that we aren't prejudiced in favor of them, but we aren't prejudiced against them, either.

Fact is, American-born engineering students are grossly under-represented in engineering programs, particularly in graduate school.

A LOT of engineering cannot be done overseas. It requires on-the-ground design, surveying, analysis, and inspection. Much of it is work in public agencies, which don't pay as well as consulting jobs but which pay much better than all but a very few music gigs. That sort of work has to be done right here.

Rick "an engineer who teaches engineers" Denney

[JCalkin]

tubasinfonian:

You're absolutely right. Money isn't everything. But it is something, and a very important thing, if you would like to remain in our society and not starve to death.

Some people get off on the "starving artist" thing, but I'm not one of them. I love music, and I love teaching, but I love my family too. And my friends. I need to support my family and have enough dough that my pals don't get tired of me mooching whenever we hit the bar.

I'm not much older than you (29) but I realize the need to have not only enough money to live comfortably, but also to be prepared in case of an emergency. If the engine blows up in my wife's car, I don't want her to walk five miles each way to and from work in freezing weather b/c my art is so important to me.

As to those who think we kollij teachers are lying to our students and/or hiding the truth from them, I have to say that is utter B.S. I tell my students, both current and prospective, that one should pursue a career in music if and only if one can't possibly imagine oneself doing anything else. My department chair might not always like that, but it needs to be said.

I've done my share of crappy gigs for little/no pay, I've lost otherwise great relationships b/c the gal(s) in question couldn't understand they had to share their time with my tubas, I've had to deal with the inevitable "what can you do with a degree in tuba?" questions from friends and family until I thought I was actually insane for choosing my career path.

But I honestly couldn't picture myself being happy with any other career.

I think the band director whose comments were the basis for this thread was not trying to dissuade everyone from going into music, only those who weren't 110% committed to it as a career choice. Especially when the average college student will change his/her major three times.

If you'd be equally happy as a wall street broker or a realtor or an engineer or a doctor or a car salesman, you can always do that and have music as a hobby. It doesn't always work the other way 'round. And you'll probably be living more comfortably than those of us who toot for our bread. And you'll have the luxury of seeing music as art and not as business.

[lgb&dtuba]

tubasinfonian:

As to those who think we kollij teachers are lying to our students and/or hiding the truth from them, I have to say that is utter B.S. I tell my students, both current and prospective, that one should pursue a career in music if and only if one can't possibly imagine oneself doing anything else. My department chair might not always like that, but it needs to be said.

Do you also tell them anything about the realities if they "can't possibly imagine" doing anything else? Your statement would sound romantic to a young student. Especially if it wasn't tempered with what that life would really be like.

Just asking.

[NDSPTuba]

What does that mean? Tubasinfonian was right, just not in reality?

The elephant was right on target, and it's very refreshing to see someone with the stones to say it.

It means in an ideal world, thus the use of the word "idealistic" in my original post.

No he wasn't on target to take tubasinfonian's statement to personally and attact him for it. Nor was it refreshing.

I disagree that it's hard to find such players that love to play. They just expect to be able to make a living and not taken for granted just because of their passion for music. I don't believe there are any professional quality players who will find any reason to play at the expense of being able to live and pay their bills.

No one said anything about "at the expense of being able to live and pay their bills" you added that caveat not me. If you are going to try and invalidate my comments, then use MY COMMENTS, and not ones you doctored up with your distorted interpretation of what I said.

[NDSPTuba]

BLAH BLAH BLAH

I never said you were bitter, all I said was you were out of line going off on tubasinfonian, just like you out of line going off on me.

As far as making assumptions, YOU assumed I was a sub. WRONG. And I sure as hell wasn't lowering the standards. And my comments weren't based on one day of a bad attitude. It was based on 2.5 years of bad attitude.

I'm done.

[lgb&dtuba]

It means in an ideal world, thus the use of the word "idealistic" in my original post.

And there's the rub, there ain't no such thing as an ideal world. We have to live in this one.

[JCalkin]

tubasinfonian:

As to those who think we kollij teachers are lying to our students and/or hiding the truth from them, I have to say that is utter B.S. I tell my students, both current and prospective, that one should pursue a career in music if and only if one can't possibly imagine oneself doing anything else. My department chair might not always like that, but it needs to be said.

Do you also tell them anything about the realities if they "can't possibly imagine" doing anything else? Your statement would sound romantic to a young student. Especially if it wasn't tempered with what that life would really be like.

Just asking.

As a matter of fact, I do.

It could sound romantic, but I always follow up with stories of woe (we all know of more than a few, whether ours or not) and of success, and let the student make an informed choice.

Everything I do is for the good of the student, whether they know it at the time or not. That's why I was rehired beyond my interim post.

I just had to give a lecture to one of my students a few weeks ago b/c he "wasn't being challenged" in his large ensemble pursuits and wanted to quit band as a result. We had to have a chat about the realities of playing the tuba.

Carol Jantsch has come up often in these discussions. I think that articles about her ought to come with the "results not typical" disclaimer found on the myriad of diet pill commercials now flooding the airwaves.

FWIW, it doesn't often change anyone's choice of career paths even when I do "bare it all", so to speak. It's not that it falls on deaf ears, but rather idealistic ones. Some lessons have to be learned for oneself.

[lgb&dtuba]

OK, I'm an amateur. Been playing one type of musical instrument or another for over 50 years. Do I love it?

To tell you the truth I just never thought about it in those terms. It's just something I do. Like eating, sleeping and breathing.

I certainly wasn't going to give up my life to it, though. Especially not in the terms Wade uses. It was a concious decision on my part out of high school. My band director's life was a cautionary tale about the life and I took it to heart.

It has been a valued part of my life, however. It still is.

That said, when does love cross over to obsession? For me it would be when it dominates one's life, both personal and professionally. I would say that many, if not most, professional musicians are obsessed with music. Not saying that's a bad thing, but it has its price just like any other obsession. Wade has listed quite a few. There are many more.

That obsession may well be a prerequisite for greatness. But it doesn't always pay the bills.

So, I don't suffer from that obsession. As much as I enjoy playing.

But like Tevia when cornered by his wife about whether he loved her I guess I would have to say if sticking with it for 50 years means love, then I love music. But I'm not obsessed with it. (My wife would probably dissagree )

So, who loves music more? Hint - there's no objective measure of love and it really doesn't matter anyway.

[JCalkin]

- I've never met Ms. Carol Jantsch.
- I've heard sound clips and KNOW that this person is an extraordinary musician and technician...clearly among the top of the field.
- As an added factor, I REALLY respect the playing of this person EVEN MORE because I don't personally find the PT6 tubas to be particularly great instruments.

All of that being said with sincerity, I believe it was a superb move for the Philadelphia Orchestra to hire this person. This hire combined youth, energy, musical/technical strength, novelty, and - attached to the novelty - hundreds-upon-hundreds of broadcast, print, and internet articles regarding this hire - bringing untold millions of dollars worth of free positive publicity to the Philadelphia Orchestra which CERTAINLY (without me having any way to verify this) transferred to significant increased endowments and attendance.

There are very few, however, who have as much to bring to the table as Ms. Carol Jantsch.

I agree with you completely. The reason I mentioned Ms. Jantsch is b/c it adds fuel to the fire of every aspiring pro that truly believes they can reach the pinnacle of tuba blowing right out of college without paying any dues.

She's an amazing musician, and the exception to the rule. She can't be used to justify young players' feelings that they are entitled to the best b/c they hold a shiny new degree, and I've heard some younger folks teetering far too close to the edge of that slippery slope.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Professionals play for the pleasure and for money.

I have never played for the pleasure of the money and it is that attitude and assumption that pisses me off.

What a difference two little words make...