York Copy

[opus37]

Brass type and quality was a advertising point in the early part of the 20th century. Martin advertised "Trumpet Brass" or yellow brass which was according to them harder to work and form. Martins tend to sound pretty good. I would say as good as a York of similar vintage. The mystery of the lost formula suggests to me that York did have their secrets. I suspect the combination of metal and design are the real secret to the sound. Kanstul says in their ads that they have done both in their pursuit of the American sound. This thread started on the quest for a York copy. I think we have found that there are credible copies available if you are looking for the sound.

[tofu]

I have occasionally heard the brass used in some of these instruments of a certain vintage, and not just York, referred to as "shell casing brass."

Is this what is referred to as "dirty brass"?

[Tim Jackson]

Just thought I'd post this bad boy again.

Here are some pictures and info on a York 6/4 I picked up on eBay some years back. It is a great example of an older York because it is all original, no repairs, and no alterations. The last owner was a collector of antique oddities somewhere in the Midwest. When I received the horn it appeared to have been sitting on a shelf wrapped in plastic for 30-40 years. The slides and valves appear to have about ten years of use on them.
There are no signs of any repair or buffing to the original finish.
Serial number 50974 1913-1915
Finish: Satin Silver with bright accents
It has a 22.5 bell and a height of 39 inches. With the tuning donut disengaged it plays perfectly in tune at A-440. It features a long pull 3rd valve slide. The intonation is very good.
These pictures show the detail of which surfaces were originally satin or bright. The York 91 mouthpiece was found at Dillon Music after I purchased the horn. It is a large shank mouthpiece with a cup shaped interior. It really does work better for me on this horn than any other mouthpiece I have tried. I really think it is the mouthpiece designed by York for this tuba. The horn has a very colorful resonant tone with a deep low end and a singing high range. It is a joy to play in the symphony and it is surprising how many pieces can be managed with only 3 valves. Sometimes I wonder if the resonance of this horn may in some way be attributed to the fact that it only has 3 valves.

[tofu]

Beautiful horn - looks like a tuba should!

[Frank Ortega]

Things I find interesting about the model 91 BBb 6/4:

They are usually top action.
The rare front action is a slightly different wrap.
There is very minimal bracing, but the bracing does seem to be perfectly balanced.
There is no top bow guard/cap, just a wire.
There are very few 4 valve models.

I think all of these things make the horn more resonant and easy to slot notes.

These same rules apply to my Martin 6/4 BBb, except that it has 4 valves and a smaller bore and bell diameter. The top bow cap of my Martin may have been removed during a precious overhaul, but who's to say. Top action and front action wraps are different on these instruments, and for some reason the front action models play better. Is it possible that these companies shared some of the same engineers or workman when working on these rare beasts and each had a signature way of putting them together?

Also, I believe Paul Scott had some of his Martin Brass analyzed years ago and it came up with a higher copper content as well, although Martin speciafically advertised using yellow brass for better tone quality. I hope he'll correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Just for fun, here's that Martin/Nirschl comparison photo I took a while back.

[bort]

Frank, are the valves comfortable on the Martin? Looks like they are pretty high up on the horn compared to the Nirschl.

[Paul Scott]

I've had several bits of brass analyzed over the years from Martins and from a York bell that I had cut down. The brass alloy for both was 80/20, roughly 80% copper, 20% zinc, although there were other trace elements (like antimony and lead) that showed up too. Actually the zinc content was closer to 18% with remainder of trace elements taking up the missing 2%. Ironically, this alloy is designated in metallurgists books as "low brass"

I've been told that the "hardness" or temper of the metal has lot more to do with the response on instruments than the actual metal composition.

I do have an early Martin catalogue that advertises the use of "yellow brass" exclusively but they dropped that claim later on. Never had any pieces from a Martin of that vintage out for testing but perhaps I will have that done.

[opus37]

I recently had my 1912 Martin restored by Lee Stofer. Part of that restoration was to shorten the tuning slide to allow it to tune at A=440. Lee may still have the pieces he removed. These parts aren't from the bell, but they may be representative of the metal used at the time. Check with Lee, he might still have the pieces.

[Paul Scott]

Thanks. I have parts too but just have to get around to sending a piece out for analysis.

[Frank Ortega]

At Goodgigs; actually I had the one piece replacement leadpipe that was on the Martin taken off and had an original Martin lead pipe put on with reproduction bits by Martin Wilk. The original and reproduction bits are actually tapered with the leadpipe, unlike sousaphone bits. The horn plays very well with this set up and is fully adjustable to play comfortably with or without a stand.

As for the valve angle, I have gorilla-like arms, so the sousaphone style valves don't bother me as much as they may others.

I have owned several of each Martin, York, and Holton 6/4 BBb tubas over the years, and they all play very similarly with slight variations. So far, this is the one I happen to like the best. My combo York/Holton was a very close second. Still miss that horn sometimes.

just my two cents, fwiw,

[EdFirth]

On the Martin thing, I've played quite a few top AND front bangers. The West Point band had four in silver like Frank's but with detachable bells, there's a cherry one here in town, in laquer, and I tried a one piece belled one, just like Frank's except in silver from Walter Sear. The only one I liked at all was the one from Walter. On the other hand,I've played ALOT of the top bangers, I own one, and there have been mabye 10 to 15 come through town and never played one I didn't like. The guy I took from at college was in the DC Army Band and he told me that the players all preferred the top action ones. And the guy on the Spike Jones band played a top banger. I, personally prefer front valves, and now have some renewed hope of finding a good playing one. FWIW, Ed

[Paul Scott]

I have to concur with Ed regarding top-action Martins. There is a greater variation with the side-action Martins but the top-actions are VERY consistent, (I've owned.....several ). This may have something to do with the fact that they built so many more top-action horns. I've also noticed that while there are many variations in certain details on side-actions, (wrap, valve block, leadpipe position) there are usually no variations on the top-actions. From what I've been told, Martin probably built side-actions only when an order came through and hence there were more variations.

You can see the old Martin top-actions in photos of many dance bands of the day, including Kay Kyser's, Horace Heidt's, and Guy Lombardo's. Top-actions were particularly convenient for those doubling string bass, (tuba and string bass on stand, tuba to the right of the player and bass to the left). They're also less awkward to move around "on the job". I rarely use my side-action for little dixie trios and such when I have to "stroll", (i.e. lug the horn and play around the room). The valve stems will get bashed into chairs and it's harder to get a grip on a big side-action. Also, practical things like page turns on-the-fly are much easier to do on a top-action, (and they're really nice outdoors since you can play and hold down the music at the same time if the wind comes up!). If I'm sitting down indoors in a concert setting I prefer my side-action but for most of my "bread and butter gigs" I take the top-action 3-banger.

[Frank Ortega]

Ed,
On the bad ones; Almost every one that I've played needed new valve stems to be properly aligned.
For some reason they were produced with short stems. I always thought they might be trying to compete with the Conn short action horns, but who knows. Once they're aligned, they're amazing.

Yorks and Holtons don't have that particular problem.

As for the 22 1/2 in bells, they are abit woofy. When I had one such bell cut down, for the York/Holton, it vastly improved it. Here's a before and after:

The first pic is all York with a Holton Valve set


This second pic is the same valve set and bell mounted on a Holton body. Martin Wilk did a beautiful job of cutting down the bell and re-patching it with monel patches.
We called her "Bubbles":

[Lee Stofer]

Wow,
I should read more often! I need to clear up a couple of things, if I might;

- although I have taken measurements of the CSO Yorks, that was not anything that was used by the Kanstul Company. They have made their own measurements. I merely wanted to sort out the truth about what these two instruments were, and are. The serial numbers would lead one to believe that they were made about 1 1/2 years apart, ie., that they were two factory custom one-offs. The older horn, Jake's original, now known as CSO York #2, is about 1 1/2" taller and has an approx. 1 1/2" shorter leadpipe than the newer York, now known as CSO York #1. For this reason, the newer York is more ergonomically comfortable, and since it is virtually all-original York, it is the better overall player. York #2 has had more damage, so it has the non-original leadpipe installed by Mr. Geyer, which is like the mouthpipe the first Hirbrunner HB-50's had, and some of the valve tubing was replaced by Peter Hirsbrunner following the damage in shipment to Switzerland for copying. The main place that makes a difference is in the 4th circuit, I think, because the beefy European nickel-silver tubing is significantly thicker than the original thin brass tubing, actually choking down the bore a little in the 4th valve. Also, the European 5th rotor is not nearly as large as the original York 5th rotor, which also has to have an effect on the low range playability. Suffice it to say that these two instruments are significantly different.

- the Kanstul model 5490 Grand CC, listed as a 5/4+ CC, is taller than the tallest CSO York, but has a slightly smaller diameter bell throat. The Kanstul 5490 is not the same size as the CSO York, but it does have a valveset and leadpipe that are taken from the CSO York measurements. I have not done a comparison measurement of the 5490 against the 6/4 York, but they are going to look different because the Kanstul is a more open-wrap and the CSO Yorks are really compact. The body taper of the large Kanstul tubas, as I understand it, are from the Martin Mammoth. For anyone that wants a really nice and sweet new yellow-brass 4-front-piston BBb that plays like a Martin, the Kanstul CTU 900/4B is the ticket. I've had collectors and Martin aficiandos play-test (and buy) the Kanstul, telling me that there is nothing else out there that comes even remotely close to the Martin-like qualities of the Kanstul 900/4B.

- as to the bell alloy issue, I was told that the York bells were made with an alloy called #454 naval brass, if I remember correctly. The J.W. Yorks were probably made with brass made in Michigan, and the copper from Northern Michigan mines also contained traces of iron ore, something I've been told by Michiganders and by the results from the lab tests on metal samples. The naval brass, when annealed dead soft is very soft, and when worked, gets very hard, and rather quickly. The J.W. York craftsmen were amongst the first makers, if not the very first maker to spin the bell flares and then braze them to the bell throat, as opposed to the cut-and-fit-pieces method. And, although I do not know the formulas, the bells were tempered more in some areas than in others to bring out certain sound characteristics. My first clue about a difference in bell metallurgy was when working on Jim Self's York 692 CC. Raw, unlacquered brass when it arrived at my shop, I didn't suspect anything being different about the bell as I removed a few dents, and even when buffing it. But, when we were chemically-cleaning the instrument and then bright-dipped it, my assistant called to me as he was rinsing it, "Hey Lee, look at this - the body is yellow, and the bell is pink!" The vast majority of surviving Michigan-made Yorks are silver-plated, so the metallurgy is hidden. Some have only a naval brass bell flare, some the entire bell, and a few are made more, or entirely of the naval brass. The one constant I find in old Yorks is that they are all different. I'm told that it is very difficult to find this alloy in sheet form anywhere anymore, but I'm told that Kanstul has what is the closest thing to the original that is available, and it is a bit more expensive. I think the Kanstul bells may look a little more red because of some of the manufacturing processes. Where I've buffed and spot-lacquered on one of these bells, the area spot-lacquered is not nearly as dark as where the original lacquer is, but much like the original York color.

- as to what the difference in bell material and tempering does, we have replaced bells on a Nirschl-York and several Holton 6/4 tubas, both BBb and CC, and the difference is stunning. Tests have concluded that when a 6/4 Holton is fitted with a Kanstul York 6/4 copy bell, the tone quality and apparent intonation changes, as well as the ease of tone production. In a professional orchestra setting, it was noted that the tuba more easily blended with the tympani and string basses. With the 4/4 York-copy instruments, I have particularly noted how that the instrument does not overpower a small room, but when taken into a large hall, the sound seems to grow to fill whatever space it is in. I frankly had my doubts about a .656" bore instrument filling a hall, but the 4/4 size Kanstul instruments will do it.

- speaking of bore, someone had commented on a .750" bore seeming small for a 6/4 instrument. Comparing the bore of rotary vs piston instruments is like comparing apples and oranges. For one thing, the traditional European instrument has a longer leadpipe, so the valves are further down the bore of the instrument, so they have to be larger. Piston instruments normally have a rather short leadpipe, so the .750" bore of an American 6/4 tuba valveset is at about the same place in the bore as where you would find .750" in the leadpipe of an Alexander 164. The big Martins tended to have a .689" bore, so they are generally not as thunderous an instrument as the big Yorks and Conns were, but they were sublimely sweet players. The model 5490 has been popular-enough that I have had trouble getting, or keeping one in the shop. I did have one opportunity to just relax and play one in an ensemble. No, it is not the CSO York, but it is plenty big for us mortals, and has a low range to die for, as well as mid' and high ranges that are very pleasant. It is a little more aggressive-sounding to me than the 6/4 York sound, but still very pleasant. If I were to accept a full-time playing gig and needed a big horn, I would buy one of these and not look back. I've spent many hours "in the saddle", sometimes with instruments I did not relish, but I could enjoy spending many hours behind this tuba.

I hope this is useful, or at least interesting

[pjv]

A+

Thanks Mr. Stofer your info and knowledge.

-Pat

[brianf]

I have a 1930's 4/4 4 valve upright BB flat that looks like the horn pictured above. It is an old Navy service horn and I had a valve job done. What a sound but I hardly use it! There were more of these made but they have been converted, with the exception of the receiver, this is original.

There is a lot of mystique about these Yorks. Their sound is unique but they do not play themselves, this is not the magic solution to great playing.

[Musical_Eagle]

Old Thread bumping...

Here is a recently finished very fine York 6/4 BBb conversion from a 3V upright to a 5V front valve done by Dan Oberloh.

How much can I buy this kind of tuba for?

[Paul Scott]

Here ya go:



I hear that Pop Johnson actually went down into the mine to dig out the ore for the special alloy used to make the thumbring!

[pjv]

and to get back to the original topic, Josef Monke made a York copy (two I believe) commissioned by Tjeerd Oostendorp in The Netherlands.

Played on it once. Loved it. I've no idea if it was anything like the York #1 or #2. Not really important to me. A fine made tuba is a fine made tuba, and playing on this tuba was as easy as cutting a knife through soft butter.

-Pat

[Cameron Gates]

and to get back to the original topic, Josef Monke made a York copy (two I believe) commissioned by Tjeerd Oostendorp in The Netherlands.

Played on it once. Loved it. I've no idea if it was anything like the York #1 or #2. Not really important to me. A fine made tuba is a fine made tuba, and playing on this tuba was as easy as cutting a knife through soft butter.

-Pat

https://www.google.com/search?q=josef+m ... -4SwMUM%3A" target="_blank" target="_blank

Holy cats, that Monke thing needs it's own thread. I hope the link works.

Looks like a dependent 5th on my small screen. Also looks like Kalison took valve knuckle lessons from this maker. I would love to try that thing.