Which 6/4 would you buy?

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Douglas
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Re: Which 6/4 would you buy?

Post by Douglas »

Of the current 6/4 tubas on the market, I like the Eastman the best. However, 6/4 tubas are not for everyone! They aren't the easiest instruments to play when you compare them to their smaller counterparts.
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Re: Which 6/4 would you buy?

Post by Art Hovey »

If you are only 55 then you are still a young man. When I was about 75 a few years ago I decided it was time to sell my Martin because it was becoming too heavy for me. I do have a couple of smaller tubas that are fine for small ensembles and giving private lessons, but I wanted a big horn for concert band work and some symphonic stuff.
So I bought a second-hand Tiger, and I still play it every day. It's a plastic copy of a Mirafone 191 with about 1/3 of the weight and about 1/10th of the price.
It is fragile and awkward to hold, but I have managed to keep it playable so far with fairly minor repairs that I have done myself. I did buy a damaged "Coolwind" for spare parts, and found that the Coolwind rotors have much better anodizing than the original Tiger rotors. The plastic paddles and linkage break easily, but I have made brass replacements that do the job.
It's just a cheap Chinese plastic tuba, but it gives me the sound that I have always wanted and actually has better intonation than most other tubas that I have played. When you get to be 75 years old you may want one if you are moderately handy with tools.
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Re: Which 6/4 would you buy?

Post by kingrob76 »

Short answer: it depends.

Were cost my ONLY or my main consideration (by a mile) I would buy a ZO Thunderbird. I've played a couple, wasn't blown away but the price point is good and I don't know if the difference between it and anything else is worth the cost IF cost is your main factor.

If I had to buy one sight unseen with no demo, I'd probably buy an Eastman 836. In my experience they are very consistent and if it's good enough for Chris Olka it's good enough for me. If I owned one of these I would probably want to own a 4/4 CC as well because to my ear these sit squarely in the BAT corner of the room and does that job very well. By all accounts production build quality is very good.

I own a Wessex Chicago Presence, and it's GREAT. The smaller bell flare truly does create a livelier, more focused sound but it still retains the character of the 6/4 horn. I don't feel I HAVE to own a 4/4 (or smaller) CC with this instrument. I own one of the prototypes so I can't speak to production build quality - mine needed new pistons because the ports didn't match up (Wessex has GREAT customer service) BUT it was a prototype so, no big deal in my mind. The production pistons worked like a charm.

I think the best 6/4 out there is the Adams. I haven't always thought that but the last couple I've played were excellent. The cost point is prohibitive for most though. The Nirschl is in this category as well. The Yamayork is a bit of a mystery to me, there are people that swear by them but I've yet to enjoy playing on ANY Yamaha tubas, they all just feel dead to me. The handmade 6450 is maybe the second best 6/4 I've ever played, but the production one doesn't tickle my fancy. These four horns, as far as I'm concerned, are expensive enough that you should probably be actively making a living playing the tuba to consider ownership - my $0.02.

So, it depends. BUT, forced to pick in a vacuum I would get another Wessex Chicago Presence for the flexibility of sound.
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Re: Which 6/4 would you buy?

Post by Sousaswag »

I think Rob's response is great! If I were to add my own opinions, it would be this:

If cost is a consideration, rule out the Gronitz. I wouldn't pay 1x,xxx for one when other 6/4's are around 2-3k cheaper. If it were ME, I'd be asking, "do I really need a 6/4?" Is this horn going to be a tool or just a "for fun" thing? If it's purely for fun, I'd try and spend as little money as possible. Again, I'm a big supporter of 5/4 horns. I don't like how most 6/4 instruments play, and find that my Thor is that horn that I will never get rid of. It does just about everything a 6/4 will do, but is more in tune and is easier to get around.

All that to say, this is all personal preference. Of the Chinese 6/4's, I'd pick the ZO. What a horn! I've not played a Wessex outside of Midwest, so I can't really comment on it. Sight unseen, I agree with choosing the Eastman. The 6/4's seem to be built better and more consistent than the small horns. The newer the better, it seems to me.

USED, I've played two examples of MW 2165 that made me go, WOW!! But both of those were heavily customized and honestly just a bear to hold and play without some sort of stand. Those horns were around $8,xxx, in raw brass, so about the price of a new York copy. YMMV.
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Re: Which 6/4 would you buy?

Post by barry grrr-ero »

If I were the person who posted this question, I would take the words of Tony Clements and the 'Navy guy' (tubamarc8891) quite seriously. But the real answer is to 'try before you buy'.
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Re: Which 6/4 would you buy?

Post by Mike C855B »

Michael Grant wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:52 am Well, as an “older” man (63), I would feel it best to share some of my “old man wisdom” and mention that as we get older, those really big tubas are harder to hold and play. The end result might be something that inspires you to not play. Sore shoulders and arms, neck, etc. And then there is hauling the dang thing around. Up and down stairs, in and out of cars, up the street as there is no parking close by, etc. This stuff really wears on an old body. More so than playing the horn. ...
Important considerations. I am having to take a long, probably permanent, hiatus from one group I play with because most performances are outdoors in sketchy "folk" venues requiring a long schlep from the parking area, and, inevitably, a hike up rickety or too-narrow stairs to a stage. The Miraphone 191 (5/4) I play weighs roughly 35 pounds and the hard case roughly the same. I used to be able to carry it to the stage by leaning into it, but now that I have arthritis in both shoulders that era is coming to an end.

IOW, as we "mature", weight with a large, awkward and fragile instrument in the first place is not your friend. Like the others said, even if you can "fill" a 6/4, consider a 4/4 to extend your years of enjoying playing.
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Re: Which 6/4 would you buy?

Post by Lee Stofer »

I'm 64 now, and regularly gigging with a Martin Mammoth. It's a top-quality 6/4 tuba that can do so much, so easily. And, for this
"old man" having a top-quality 6/4 at a bargain price and putting the rest into savings seems like a good idea.

I do also have a new Rudolf Meinl goldbrass 5/4 CC coming from Germany, the first new Rudi to be in stock here in several years.
The Rudolf Meinl tubas are wonderful, but they do come with a price tag, and this one is about $27,000.00. I'll know for sure as
soon as I've paid air freight, Customs and brokerage charges, etc.

I've worked on the Chinese tubas, and although they have gotten better, and the Eastman build quality seems to be the best, I'm
not purchasing one.
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Re: Which 6/4 would you buy?

Post by barry grrr-ero »

What Tony Clements says - he's tried them all. Personally, I really like the sound of the Wessex "Chicago Presence". I tried an Eastman 836 straight out of the box, and wasn't the slightest bit impressed. They may sell a lot of them, but they come up for sale often too (used). There has to be a reason. As far as Gronitz goes, from an 'old man' perspective (add ten years), I'd take a PCM over a PCK any day.

From Eastman, I would 'downsize' one notch and take a serious look at the 832. People who own them really love them. I tried an Eastman rotary F that was fantastic, so they can do it. Check out this video of an 832. It has a similar sort of size and coloring of sound as a Besson 995. The Gronitz PCM is somewhat similar too, but they're hard to find now.

Eastman 832: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsoTx3TDIHA . The nice thing about this size of tuba, is that you take it to brass quintet, brass choir, 'boomy' churches, etc. - places where you don't need or want a huge, puffy sound.

ALL THAT SAID, if you think you may be mostly playing in community bands, Bavarian Oktoberfest bands, etc., you may want to go the BBb route. Wessex makes a number of really good, big BBb tubas. Eastman has a big rotary BBb tuba that sounds great. It's a model five-sixty-something or another. There's a Youtube video of that thing too. The Europeans are coming up with some great sounding new 'Kaiser' designs, but they'll cost you beaucoup bucks! Daniel Ridder could help you wade through those shores - if you've got the bucks and just want the best 'fart master deluxe' you can get your hands on.

Concerning the schlepping of heavy tubas, I use a three-wheel baby jogger. I just cut the tray portion off. The back wheels come off, so it's easy to put it in the car. It makes pushing your stuff across a parking lot and a college campus almost a snap. I know - I play a rotary Neptune that weighs a ton! The baby jogger carries the tuba, the various stands, the stand light, a playing stool (for outdoors) - all of it. No problem.
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Re: Which 6/4 would you buy?

Post by MKTuba »

Honestly, we are very blessed to have the tubas available on our market today! In general, as long as you steer clear from extremely cheap horns (anything coming out of india really) you will be hard pressed to find a truly bad tuba. I have played some old instruments, and even with them being in good shape they are just low quality horns. Basically what I am getting at here is that no matter which Chinese 6/4 horn you choose you will end up with a fine instrument.

All of that being said, the only one of these I have first hand experience with is the Eastman 836. It is a pretty great tuba! It is no surprise that they have some manufacture flaws (at least the one that I played) however they seem to play pretty well. The one qualm I have with this (from the very limited time that I had to play the tuba) was that the 5th valve is incredibly sticky. I have heard that a few people have gotten a replacement 5th valve linkage fabricated to fix this issue, but I do not know if eastman has revised the design.

When I was auditioning for my undergrad (in late 2020, early 2021) I got the chance to have lessons with several tuba professors from several major universities in my state. One of the professors that I spoke with stated that his favorite Chinese 6/4 on the market was the ZO. I do not know his reasoning behind this but I thoroughly trust his opinion on stuff like this.

Another local tuba professor owns and actively performs on a wessex chicago model CC tuba. He is another wonderful player and teacher, and I know he wouldn't advertise the fact he plays the wessex if he didn't enjoy it!

With all of that being said, I think that sight unseen the Chinese 6/4 I would purchase would be the ZO or The eastman. The ZO is the cheapest of the 3, and I know several fine players that play these. I also really appreciate the way that Tom Mcgrady does business, and I like to support him whenever I get the chance. Overall I enjoyed the eastman that I got to try, and I think with a couple of easy modifications it would quickly become a superb instrument.

Make of that what you will, as I certainly am not an authority on this topic. I just hope I was able to help!
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Re: Which 6/4 would you buy?

Post by BBruce107 »

I know I am pretty late to this thread but I have tried all of the models mentioned above. Before I continue, I will admit that a 6/4 CC tuba is not what I play and I always advocate trying them out before you buy them. Here are my thoughts from trying the instruments:

Eastman: Very easy blow, solid intonation and sounds fantastic! I really was considering one of these when I was infatuated with the 6/4 CC sound (I still am, just not enough to get one!). I have heard from people who own this tuba that it has a very dark sound but can also sound kind of bland compared to other tubas in this size category like the Mienl Weston, Nirschel, etc.

Wessex: The smaller bell model is a fantastic 6/4 tuba! My undergraduate teacher replaced his PT-6P with this model and when I tried his I was really suprised how easy it was to play. It almost reminded me of a Thor but harder to max out and edge. Of the aforementioned models this one is the one I have played the least but I have heard many people who own one and they sound great.

ZO: When I switched back to CC after going the 6/4 BBb route I tried this model and the 5/4 Thor copy. I wasn't impressed with the 6/4 that I played but it could be that it just wasn't the best one available at the time. The intonation wasn't as consistent as the Eastman or Wessex and it felt like I had to do more adjusting from note to note than other tubas. I do remember that it did sound really good when it was in the center. Very German sounding York model as I recall.

As for the 6/4 CC search goes I would suggest to you that if the 6/4 is the end all be all that you want you need to play test them and make sure it fits your playing. For me if I were to go back to a 6/4 (which is way down the road if I get a job where I would need to upsize) I would be more inclined to look into a used Meinl Weston 2165 which can be had at about the same price point as a new Chinese 6/4 York copy, or look at a 6450 if I had the finances to do so. Good luck in your search!
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Re: Which 6/4 would you buy?

Post by TubaSteve »

Lee Stofer wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:04 pm I'm 64 now, and regularly gigging with a Martin Mammoth. It's a top-quality 6/4 tuba that can do so much, so easily. And, for this
"old man" having a top-quality 6/4 at a bargain price and putting the rest into savings seems like a good idea.

I do also have a new Rudolf Meinl goldbrass 5/4 CC coming from Germany, the first new Rudi to be in stock here in several years.
The Rudolf Meinl tubas are wonderful, but they do come with a price tag, and this one is about $27,000.00. I'll know for sure as
soon as I've paid air freight, Customs and brokerage charges, etc.

I've worked on the Chinese tubas, and although they have gotten better, and the Eastman build quality seems to be the best, I'm
not purchasing one.
I have to agree that getting a good used horn is a top consideration. I am just loving the 6/4 Holton that Lee rebuilt for me about 5 years ago. The Holton has now become my absolute main horn. He did a wonderful job rebuilding it, and it sounds great. Find a good horn to start with and have it overhauled.

That said, one additional reason that it is my main horn is that playing it is different enough from all my other horns that the transition back to it can be a struggle. The more I play it, the better I get with it, and I find very few challenges with it. I love it, and so does my fellow players.

Steve
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Re: Which 6/4 would you buy?

Post by GeoffC_UK »

Whilst the list below is not absolute, you could list horn attributes that drive its weight.

Weight: 6/4 > 3/4
Weight: Heavy > Light gauge brass
Weight: 6v > 5v > 4v > 3v
Weight: Large > Small bore
Weight: Large > Small bell
Weight: SP > Lacquer
Weight: Compensated > Non-compensated
Weight: Hard > Soft case

(Not metioned CoG and handling, which are indirectly weight drivers)

But do we really select a horn on the basis of weight?
I am just turned 60 and the weight of the horn is becoming more important each day.
I bought a heavy horn. I love it. But one day she'll need to go.

Best wishes in your search, G
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