Merits of different fifth valve types

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cjk
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Post by cjk »

all of the pictures have the fifth valve tubing very straight. It looks like the slide is very long. It may pull out far enough to get you to your major third. maybe not.

If not, any decent brass repairman could order crooks and slide tubing and make you a replacement slide.

I think practically everybody BUT Miraphone used flat whole step fifth valves by default so people got used to it (even though the major third system is better).


Christian, who is not a repairman, Klein
Last edited by cjk on Wed May 05, 2004 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by joh_tuba »

If I were you I would have the longer fifth valve slide made for it. The shorter fifth is functional enough but I'm in agreement that the double whole step fifth provides for better intonation.
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WoodSheddin
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Post by WoodSheddin »

bbtubaman wrote:if you look at a two step and a one step 5th and their fingering charts,
the one step 5th has more alternate fingeriings than the two step and that is why i think most prefer it.
Never thought of that before.
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Art Hovey
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Post by Art Hovey »

I'm not sure, but I think the major third valve was invented by Fred Geib, who played in Sousa's band and was a Big Gun in New York back in the '30's. It later became known as the "mirafone system". The flat whole-step valve was popularized by Chester Roberts.
For more info than you might really want on this subject take a look at this website:

http://galvanizedjazz.com/tuba.html

-Art
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Post by Mikelynch »

Just a note relative to the post on Fred Geib's horns, at least two of Geib's tubas were 5 valve tubas, set up, like a number of horns of the day, with the 4 valve being a 2-step valve, and the 5th valve being the (interval) 4th. He had a rotary valve Conn like this (pictured in his method book), and also a piston valve King (5 pistons).

Similarly, Bill Rose's first CC tuba was a Sanders, 4 valve, with the major third 4th valve (termed by some a "viennese system, but use of that term disputed by some others). Bill learned all his excerpts with that fingering, and on later horns always cut the 4th valve to match what he was used to. He never owned a 5th valve horn during his career with the Houston Symphony, and sounded simply amazing on everything he played, using privilege tones to complete an extra half step (or slightly more) than we would encounter today on modern 4 valve horns. [At the other end of the spectrum, he also never used an F tuba, playing everything on CC]
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Post by Dave Hayami »

Hey Steve,
I asked Norm Pearson how long it took him to get use to the different 5th valve on the newer tubas, his reply, "As long as it takes to get Robb Stewart to make a new long slide for it"
If this is the same Steve that I had as a TA at USC, how dare you call yourself "silvertuba"
Dave "Silver 186" Hayami
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Art Hovey
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Post by Art Hovey »

Mike, thank for the interesting info. Fred Geib's Conn was rebuilt by Warren Deck, and I heard Don Butterfield remark that it played much better after Warren's modifications. Then a year or two later one of Warren's students was using it.

I have an old rotary-valve BBb tuba with a 2-step fourth valve. I never could understand why it was made that way, since there seem to be almost no valve combinations that are useful. (It has only 4 valve that I can find.) I guess the idea was to have perfect tubing lengths for 1, 2, 3, and 4 semitones and not worry about the rest.
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Post by Jay Bertolet »

All my horns are configured to have the long whole step 5th valve. I even had the 5th valve tubing on my older Miraphone 184 cut from its normal 2 steps to the long whole step (Thanks Lee!).

To me, it seems like the long whole step is a very natural way to conceptualize the primary use of a 5th valve, which is to correct intonation issues in the low range. Specifically, to correct the inherent and progressive sharpness that you get going into the low range. To me, it is a very natural thought process to substitute a 5th valve for the shorter 1st valve in the normal fingering patterns. That process seems very intuitive to me and anything that makes playing more natural (and requiring me to think about it less) I'm all for. Others have mentioned the extra numbers of alternate fingerings available using the long whole step. Also true and I take advantage of that aspect as well.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the one note on horns that is really the issue when dealing with the 5th valve. That being, for example on the CC tuba, low F. Just about any horn you buy this one note (or its relative note on the other keys of horns) is always a difficult one to play in tune. The 1-4 fingering is sharp, the 1-2-4 fingering is flat. This is pretty universal on our horns. Setting a long whole step 5th valve such that the 4-5 combination is really in tune on this note sets up a very flexible set of fingerings going chromatically down from that note. And that set of fingerings starts with the basic substitution of 5th for 1st. To me, this really fits easily in my thinking. It also addresses one of the two notes that I find most difficult to play in tune on our horns.

As always, you can make just about any situation work but I would speculate that these factors are what has driven the current trend of long whole step 5th valves.

My opinion for what it's worth
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Post by Mikelynch »

Art,
It is true that Fred Geib's Conn was "rebuilt" to some extent by Warren. Basically, the original valve set was taken off, and the valve set from an Alex was put into the body, and, the leadpipe changed. That was the often-called "Frankentuba" that Warren played for a while.
Fortunately, Warren kept the original parts. The horn is now in process of being restored to its original structure, with the original valveset reconditioned. By several reports, it was a fine tuba in that original form, though undoubtedly the valves needed some work after many years of playing.
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Post by Leland »

How much of a difference is there, really, between a "long whole step" and a minor third?

My BBb 3302 is set up to play low Eb as 4-5, which is similar to what's mentioned for a tuba with a long whole step, yet the 5th valve is much more of a minor third than simply a flat whole step. I could hold down the 5th valve, pull all the other valves' slides out a ways, and use it as a sort of GG tuba.
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Fingering Charts

Post by Rob Wilson »

Where can I find a good set of fingering charts for all keyed tuba that include the 5th valve set up as a flat whole step and as a minor third. I am specifily looking for EEb fingering for a Willson 3400. I have the conversion tunning slide.
Rob W. <><
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