TubeNet

youngtubaboy wrote:I just wanted to see some peoples veiws on the valves they like. And also tell me why you prefer what you prefer.

My answer: Yes.

Okay, now that's a choice, so I can vote.

Leland may vote No, except that contrabass bugles have as many valves now as tubas.

I find valves to be just one aspect of any given tuba. I'm not saying they are the same, but that their differences are no more important than other differences, like the sound, intonation characteristics, and ergonomics. If a tuba sounds good, feels good, and is easy to play, then I don't really care what kind of valves it has.

Rick "who takes the valves that come with the tubas he likes" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:

youngtubaboy wrote:I just wanted to see some peoples veiws on the valves they like. And also tell me why you prefer what you prefer.

My answer: Yes.

That wasn't a choice, however.

Rick "who takes the valves that come with the tubas he likes" Denney

Is now

***

My Miraphone and Wunderlich rotaries seem to cause less trouble than my piston horns.

Why... just the other day the Martin tried to pick a fight with my King, while the Cuesnon and Conn just egged him on. The piston horns just don't get along well at all. Always causing trouble!

.....voted for piston valves........but have been playing a rotary valved tuba for the past 8-9 years. I like the sound of this ol B&S 4/4 horn. I'd like to have a piston instrument, but I just can't bring myself to sell the B&S to raise the cash for a different instrument.

schlepporello wrote:Now I find that hard to believe about the Cuesnon, as they are generally good natured.

The Cuesnon is just a little Eb pea-shooter. 'Little Man Syndrome' I think!

With me, it's not so much piston vs. rotor, as it is the placement of the finger pads. I have (attempted) to play a couple of BBb horns with front pistons at an angle across the front of the tubing. Just can't get a comfortable position with that setup. I've never played a Marzan or the Miraphone with the angled rotories (188?), so I can't say for sure about them. I have played American style uprights of 3 and 4 pistons, from a little Holton (Couesnon) Eb pea shooter, to Conn 25J, and several German BBb and Eb rotories with the finger pads pretty much parallel to the bell stack.

So I guess my vote is "Yes", but with the caveat of how the finger pads are loacted.

jlb

I'm stuck with pistons on my Amati, but I definitely prefer rotary & my next horn will have rotary valves.

I've played both and, while there doesn't seem to be one or the other that will improve my technique overnight, I like the maintenance (or lack of same!) aspect of the rotors over the pistons. It seems every piston I've ever played has needed bottles and bottles of valve oil poured down them, whereas the rotors seldom need a drink. This has to count for something?

Rick Denney wrote:Leland may vote No, except that contrabass bugles have as many valves now as tubas.

Heh -- just now decided to read the topic, and there's my name.

I voted "yes" as well, because it really doesn't matter to me.

Funny thing is, of the two contras I use, both are unorthodox. My King has two pistons and an additional slide good for a half step, and the Marine contra has two pistons and a half-step rotor.

The rest of the hornline has two pistons (per horn, that is ) partly to make a more distinct separation between the unit & the rest of the bands in the fleet. To the non-musical higher-ups that determine personnel & budgets, it's difficult to explain that they're in a different key or that a drum corps traditionally has no woodwinds, so we chose to have a different number of buttons.

Difference in key or valves aside, it certainly helped last night that, unlike woodwinds, our instruments are pretty weatherproof. Because of rain, we modified the first Evening Parade of the season. We had the crowd move to the south end of the Barracks, around the parking area. The performance started with us playing our concert from there, then the Silent Drill Platoon did their thing, followed by the evening colors sequence -- a bugler sounding the evening colors call, then us playing a verse of Eternal Father, and finally the bugler sounding Taps. All the while, there was a persistent rain, which certainly made for a unique atmosphere.

I understand that it was the first time it had ever been done that way, and it turned out really well. It was certainly exciting from our end.

Leland, Can you post a few pics of your contrabasses on here so I can admire them?

What kind of shape is the K90 in, and where did you get it?

Here's one of the better pics I have of the Marine horn (note: an image title with an ampersand "&" won't display correctly):



and one of the K90 right after I got it back from being freshened-up my guy in Kearney:


I got the King from a post on the old TubeNet. A professor at BYU was selling a bunch of tubas, and in the list was, "King K-90 nonchromatic contrabass bugle. Make an offer." I thought that was interesting, so I asked for some photos. He sent a couple, and at first glance, I was saddened -- there was so much tarnish that it looked BROWN. But, I looked really closely over the next couple of days, and saw that there were no major dents, and ALL of the original braces were present -- which told me that this one had been properly maintained while it was being used. The professor told me that he bought it from a percussion student, who had bought it at a garage sale.

I went ahead & bit, and the thing showed up a couple weeks later, packed in some spare iMac boxes (they were new then) and lots of styrofoam pieces. Everything worked, the valves were in good shape, there were no leaks, and it played just fine.

I mentioned the find to another contra guy I had been corresponding with via the TubaEuph group (Gary Brattin, now writing & teaching in Taipei), telling him how it came from Brigham Young in Utah, that it had all its parts, that one of the pipes had a funky taper, and how the worn areas in the silver looked like how Blue Devils used to hold their Kings. He writes back, and goes, "I think that was my horn!" He marched BD from 83 through 86, and was section leader for his ageout year. During the '86 season, they had a stop in Ogden, UT, and at one point, somebody came into their gym and STOLE his contra (being section leader, he picked out the nicest one in November, and guess which one the thief took). He had to borrow one from SCV that night, and used a Blue Knights horn for the remainder of the season.

I emailed Dave Gibbs about the horn, asking if they wanted it returned. I didn't hear back (it's been probably six years now), so I guess they're satisfied enough that it's in a good home.

I have no plans to add a new valveset, though. It plays great the way it is, anyway.

Leland wrote:Here's one of the better pics I have of the Marine horn (note: an image title with an ampersand "&" won't display correctly):

Interesting, but great looking horn. I never realized you guys didn't use 3 valve horns all around. What;s the length on the valves? You mentioned the rotor was 1/2 step, but what about the pistons? Are they the same on the Corps' horn and your King?

I hope to see you guys, and the drill team again soon. Last/only time way P.I. in 1990, during boot camp.

-Thomas

ThomasDodd wrote:Interesting, but great looking horn. I never realized you guys didn't use 3 valve horns all around. What;s the length on the valves? You mentioned the rotor was 1/2 step, but what about the pistons? Are they the same on the Corps' horn and your King?

Yup -- they're just like 1 & 2 on regular brasses, whole step under the index finger and half step under the middle finger. The rotor is basically the same design as the Olds 1-piston/1-rotor (whole/half steps) contra that was in use until about 1980. Zig Kanstul, whose company built our set in 1995 (had to retool the factory for it, too, since they had been making only 3-valve horns since 1990), was the designer for the Olds and King bugles. Well, except for the K-90.

The Marine horn is, well, okay. It won't take a whole lot of volume, but at least it sounds better from out front than it does at the mouthpiece. The wide bell flare adds a lot of midrange harmonics (I'm guessing), which helps it project better than its smallish-4/4 size would indicate. Nothing like the King, though.

I hope to see you guys, and the drill team again soon. Last/only time was P.I. in 1990, during boot camp.

-Thomas

Cool -- keep me notified of when & where you'll be around. It's our 70th anniversary in July, ya know.

Leland, that K90 is a beaut. Making me jealous, you getting lucky like that.

If you are ever willing to part with it (in a few years after I am out of college), I'll give it a good home

ContraDude wrote:Leland, that K90 is a beaut. Making me jealous, you getting lucky like that.

Yeah, it is, ain't it? "Lucky" is right, too. Probably looks as good as when BD had it in '85 (yes, the refurbishing seemed to take a year or two off of its age). Jeff Stelling out there in Kearney, NE, does great work.

If you are ever willing to part with it (in a few years after I am out of college), I'll give it a good home

ha -- NEVER. The only place it's going is where I designate in my will -- whenever I get around to writing one.

Leland wrote:

ContraDude wrote:Leland, that K90 is a beaut. Making me jealous, you getting lucky like that.

Yeah, it is, ain't it? "Lucky" is right, too. Probably looks as good as when BD had it in '85 (yes, the refurbishing seemed to take a year or two off of its age). Jeff Stelling out there in Kearney, NE, does great work.

If you are ever willing to part with it (in a few years after I am out of college), I'll give it a good home

ha -- NEVER. The only place it's going is where I designate in my will -- whenever I get around to writing one.

Too bad... oh well, I guess I will have to deal with a DEG/Dynasty Contra when I get the money. Probably will grab the 5/4 size one, just so I can rag on the guys about having a (Contra)contrabass bugle.

ContraDude wrote:Too bad... oh well, I guess I will have to deal with a DEG/Dynasty Contra when I get the money. Probably will grab the 5/4 size one, just so I can rag on the guys about having a (Contra)contrabass bugle.

Those are certainly fun -- play a lot like the big Willson tubas.

Last summer at Brigadiers, I got to use one of the early 90's variant of the big Kanstul contras, and that thing could really go. Its intonation was better than the big DEGs, and it would just project like mad. Plus, the valve pipes were laid out in such a way that I could see almost everything to my left.

I got to use my King for my last season at Empire in 2000. Once, while riding the bus with the horn in the seat next to me, Jerry Kelsey (our arranger/caption head at the time), sitting a few rows back, asked me how I could "carry that thing all day long." I simply said, "Every time I make a noise on it, I feel justified." He couldn't help but agree.

Oh, to stay on the topic of piston vs. rotor -- I don't care, because as long as they work, they're both faster than me... lol

They both work fine. My Rudy Meinl F is rotary and I love it. Of course my Yorlbrunner is piston. The only thing that anoys me with the Yorkbrunner is the water build up. I have to empty every slide and spin my horn once to get all the water out. With my rotary valve F, everything empties out of the spit valve at the bottom.

It is a small price to pay to play such a magnificant horn.

I think it's the problem of quality:

Rotory valve horns has a minimum price of $2000

But piston valves can be in every price.

So the 'sticky pistons' are always cheap.

Have you ever heard of a Meinl Weston piston sticks?