The Bass Tuba

[Sousaswag]

I've been thinking a lot about the role of the bass tuba lately- let's have a discussion!

The bass tuba is typically seen (here, in the US) as a solo instrument. It's never recommended to be played elsewhere other than maybe quintet.

However, I think that the bass tuba is the instrument that for me (and a lot of others) makes the most sense to own. Here's why.

I'm a teacher with no intention of auditioning for a major symphony or band. I DO play in a local "semi-professional" group that's basically equivalent to a higher collegiate ensemble. That group has 7 tuba players including me. For fun, here's what we play: B&S Pt-6, Pt-6P, MRP, Rudy 5/4 C, MW Thor, M&M Hirsbrunner BBb clone, Yammie 641. A lot of firepower there. This is the only thing I do that I "need" the MRP.

So, for what I do, I probably don't need such an expensive instrument in the MRP. I don't even really need TWO tubas. But I own them and have no intention of getting rid of them

Here's the thing: For what we actually do in music school, I think the bass tuba is the better choice- particularly one with a decent lower register. Think compensating Eb, 5v Eb, piston F type horns. Those bass tubas that are really quite versatile.

What do you actually do in music school? Or, rather, what are you required to do?- Most programs tell you that you need ensemble credit- one large ensemble per semester. Then, you go to lessons and play etudes and solos and might participate in a brass quintet or other chamber ensembles. For me, I would've been able to do all of that on my big Willson F I use now.

So often there are other players with the big horns anyway, and unless you really want to continue and audition, you can play most everything on a large bass tuba and probably spend less money in the long run. Nobody likes college debt- why not put that money that you saved from buying the 6/4 you don't need into your tuition fund?

Yes, there is certainly merit to getting really good at the big horn, I totally get that. But, how often do you see people buy this York copy that is much too big for 99% of the stuff that they do, only to get the hand in band and sound particularly bad on most standard solo repertoire that just sits better on F and Eb?

Once you leave school, you'll likely find a community group to play in and might do church music/quintet work. All of which would be a great fit for the F/Eb tuba.

I think this should be the FIRST tuba one buys, rather than a secondary, more akin to what they do across the pond where comp. Eb is the main horn for most things. I just think it works better for most things we do. So much of your music education on your primary instrument is dedicated to solo playing where, if you have access to an F or Eb, opens up a huge library of stuff that's just not easily playable on the big tuba.

I hope my point comes across a little bit through my rambling- what do you think?

[DouglasJB]

I think we (you and I) discuss this often. It all depends on the playing you do. My preference is towards Bass tuba, BUT I have used large F and Large Eb in Ochestra and Wind Bands on the Contrabass part. For they type of playing I did and the groups I was playing with I was viewing my Contrabass as the "secondary" horn. I only used it when I absolutely had to. Something I did to help was I used a large MP on those bass tubas to help with the low register, but thats what worked for me. Face it, even pieces with a large range in Large Ensembles (think Pictures at an Exhibition) there is enough time if needed to switch mp's before and after Bydlo if you really need to, to still allow for a very full low register on the rest of the piece.

Just my thoughts, I'm a HUGE fan of Bass tubas, their sound, use and versatility.

[kingrob76]

This is pretty straightforward I think.

- Look at the kind of playing you a LIKELY to do in the next 5 / 10 / 25 years
- Pick the type of instrument that fits as much of the above as possible

I've said this MANY times, if I had to own one horn it would be a 4/4-ish CC tuba because the type of playing I would like to do rarely calls for bass tuba-specific tonalities. But that's for ME - what fits YOU might be completely different. You have to be true to the sound you hear in your head, as well, or you won't really enjoy what you're doing for the long term.

[MKTuba]

I have to say that I agree with you David.

How I came to play the tuba is very different from a lot of tuba players in the states. My first time ever playing the tuba was in a British Brass Band when I was 13ish years old. I started on a 3+1 compensating eb. In a lot of ways, I still really enjoy these instruments. They are very ergonomic (for me) and generally have really good intonation, but this obviously depends on the model. If I wasn’t chasing the professional tuba player pipe dream I would probably only own an Eb, and be completely content. I have found that I really enjoy CC tuba, and am certainly more comfortable with them (since I have played them for the last 4ish years). However, if I ever decide to give up the pro tuba thing, or make my way into a job that would allow me to only play an Eb, I would do it in a heartbeat.

On a bit of a side note, there were 2-3 years as a young teenager where I was still saving up for a tuba. If you would have asked me what tuba I wanted to buy, for most of that time I would have told you a Besson 98x, 3+1 Eb. A few months before I bought my first CC, a college music professor (who was not a low brass professor, but was a low brass player) essentially told me that there are no professional tuba players who play Eb. He didn’t say it in a malicious way, but that conversation was what inspired me to move away from the Eb tuba. Had that not happened, I probably would have gotten to college with my only tuba being a besson Eb, and I would have had to buy a CC AFTER owning an Eb. Of course, I am pretty happy with the way things turned out as at my university we do a lot of playing on the Big horn.

This may not answer your question exactly however I hope the insight I provided was useful.

[arpthark]

I've made way more money on F tuba than C tuba as a gigging tuba player.

But I bet I could've shown up at those gigs with a C tuba and nobody would've said diddly squat.

[T. J. Ricer]

If I ran the circus, all players would start on Eb tuba in elementary/middle school beginner band programs. The low end is good enough down to low Bb or so and the mid-high range in the staff is much more accessible, but the main reason is size: a tiny Bb doesn’t make a ton of sense acoustically (and even when it’s wrapped tightly, it’s still a big horn that needs plenty of air), but smallish Ebs play great. Have your stronger players add the BBb to their arsenal as they grow into it. Allow those who want to to stay on Eb through high school. Maybe have a fleet with 15” bells at the Junior High (like the lighter/cheaper Yamaha 321) and 19” bell full-compensating horns at the High School. Find a couple of new or used Eb sousaphones… Those who wanted to specialize could add CC and/or F as they move to and through college.

I only added F tuba in grad school, but do play it regularly now.

Fwiw, I played the opening concert of the HSO season last week on Eb. I’d say the 6/4 CC is my “main/normal” horn in the orchestra, but I’ve used BBb, CC, Eb, or F based on what would make my job the easiest and/or sound the best.

-T. J.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

You make a good point for the usefulness of a bass tuba (with a decent low register) for college. I had a BBb when I was in school, mainly because that’s all I could afford at the time. The school owned a Miraphone F, but not a terribly good one (probably from the 1960’s).

College is a weird environment for tuba players. You do tend to study solos, and etudes quite a bit. In real life though, you don’t really tend to encounter that many solo opportunities….mostly big ensemble stuff. For solo study, Eb/F have advantages, but if you are the only tuba player in a concert band (post college), playing bass tuba will probably be less than rewarding. Orchestra could be OK on a bass, but my current main orchestra brass section would swamp me, if I were using my F on Tchaikovsky #4!

To sum up my point:
Bass —> College: Good
Bass —> Real Life: Not So Good

Disclaimer: assuming we are talking one horn

[Sousaswag]

I actually disagree about the bass tuba's usefulness later in life. To a degree, that is.

If all you've got is a rotary F with a crappy low register, then yes, I do agree.

However, if one were to choose one of the bigger bass tubas, think Besson 98x, Willson 3200/3400, MW 2250, JP 2250, etc. I think that is the way to go! For this concert cycle in my band, I'll be using my big Willson. Danzon No. 2, in particular, is quite fun on a small horn! That said, I'm able to keep up easily with the guys on the big horns. I can always bring my MRP again if I want, but the Willson does 90% of what that group needs, and quite honestly we don't need that extra 10% firepower right now!

I realize everybody's situation is different- my point is that the bass tuba is much more viable than we might let on in many situations!

I also think T.J.'s point about starting kids on Eb is a great idea. I teach beginning band and do think that a smaller, more nimble Eb would be much easier for the beginners to play. In particular they struggle with that low register- I think less tuba to blow through might actually help them develop their sounds quicker. Maybe something to experiment with, huh?

[GeoffC_UK]

Morning,
Here in the UK things are simpler, I think.

Population of England/Wales = 60m people.
Number of 'British' brass bands > 500.
Rough estimation of bass tubas in these bands = 1,300 tubists.
Let's say 800 x Eb and 500 x Bb.
Nearly all blow Besson/B&H compensated 3+1 horns.

If you want to learn to play a brass instrument, you can pop along to your local brass band.
Here they'll provide you a loan instrument and tuition, some do that for free, others a Dollar a week, but it's very cheap.
Age 7, is a good age to start, here.
Mostly kids play tuba once they've grown big enough.
I played a smaller instrument (tenor horn) and then moved to tuba when I was older.
Often kids start on Eb, but it will be a full-sized instrument.
When they get good enough, they leave the band's 'learners' group and move to their 'senior' band and progress from there.
If they are fortunate, these kids will also get lessons at their school, but this is not always the case.
My local community band has 3 groups: learners, intermediary, and senior, so there's a natural progression.
http://www.hathernband.co.uk/

Some younger brass band tuba players then start to play, occasionally, with wind bands or symphony orchestras.
Mostly they play Eb in these groups.
This introduction is normally through their school system (county and national).

The point is that, arguably, we are a country of Eb's in the main.


(My comments are generalities, so there are exceptions, clearly.)

[MKTuba]

My experience in the part of the US that I live in is that it is fairly common to see community band players playing Eb tubas. To be fair, both of the regions I am basing this statement off of have an active British Brass band, and these Eb players all play in that group. Im sure it may be different when the community band doesn't intersect with a Brass Band, however I still see them quite often. I am happy to see that Eb tubas, and brass bands are becoming more popular in the US.

[Somarithedark]

My private teacher at college always told me that if he had an Eb, he would get rid of the rest of his equipment (Mira 186, Wilson 5/4 CC, Mira Bb, Meinl Weston(?) F) because an Eb could cover every type of playing he does: ensembles, chamber music, solo rep, parades etc. Whenever I asked why he just doesn't, he always said that it would be like selling his children away... lol.

Anyways, this is the main reason why I gravitated towards buying and mainly playing an Eb horn. They really can cover all the bases. IMO they sound just as good as F tubas in the high register, and with good practice you the low register sounds on par with contrabass tubas. I play on a 4/4 Eb (Mira Norwegian Star) and I have almost no complaints with it. It just doesn't have the sound I'm personally looking for in the extreme low register for orchestral playing, which is why I have a 6/4 CC Wessex York copy to compensate for that. It has been acting as my "large ensemble only" horn for the time being while I've been developing on the horn, but give me about a year and I'll probably only be busting it out on a piece by piece basis, if necessary.

If I wasn't pursuing a professional/orchestral playing career, I would only use my Eb for everything.

Plus, it's such an easier instrument for students to start out on. It's smaller than BBb and I find that the higher fundamental makes it easier to learn and play, especially with the typical "flat" key signatures in wind band rep. Bonus points, most pieces offer transposed Eb tuba parts in treble clef, so it's faster and easier to get students started on the horn if they're coming off of trumpet, TC baritone, or even a woodwind instrument. Eb sousas are smaller too!

[Sousaswag]

Reece, you've hit the nail on the head- I agree with just about everything you said. I could do everything on my large piston F 100%. But, getting rid of my C would make me feel less complete

Playability-wise, you will never get the versatility out of the contrabass tuba that comes naturally with the bass tubas. That said, the sound that comes from a big contrabass is definitely unmatched.

I love Eb tuba- The one I owned was just a dog as far as intonation goes. But, I loved the low register response on that tuba. My big F is very, very similar, just with a slightly worse low BBb. I can deal. I wish more people would give Eb a chance- they are great tubas, just rare. And hard to sell- nobody really wants them. I've gone on and on about Eb on this forum, so I'll spare you the headache

Let's be honest- the bass tuba is more than just a solo horn. Very few people care about tuba solos outside of the collegiate musician(s) and professionals. I think the added versatility a bass tuba brings just makes it more enjoyable for me to play in every ensemble- not to mention it's less heavy and easier to carry around!

[opus37]

I play Eb tuba for everything. I have a miraphone starlight that I use for quintet and solo work, a Kanstal 66t for band work and an old helicon for marching. The miraphone has the right tone quality to match the rest of a standard quintet and excels in solo work. The Kanstal has the York sound the blends well with bands. The helicon is just fun and seem to draw attention because it's different. I've been able to handle anything I do and for polka work they are the best, in my humble opinion. BBb players I know and play with struggle with range, both high and low, and volume control.

[deputysgttuba]

I know a few folks that use Eb as their only horn and do very well with it. My experience with bass tubas was with a Mahillion 5 valve F I bought my senior year in high school and used my first year in college that was less than satisfactory. Haven't owned or used one since. I am considering purchasing a bass tuba of some sort in the next year as a supplement to my current 4/4 CC.

[humBell]

I am on board with Bass tuba usage.

But that's just me.

[Steve Inman]

FWIW, most of my playing is with a very small church wind ensemble (2 tpts, 1 tbn, 1 tuba, 1-2 flutes, 1-2 clarinets), brass quintet, or as one of 2-3 tubas in a community band. In all these situations, my Yamaha YEB-381 5V Eb is fine, and my Conn 56J CC would really be too big for the church group. The trumpets in the quintet always want the CC. But I've heard a local quintet with a BBb tuba, and it sounded like -- a BBb tuba solo, with a brass quartet accompanying him.

That having been said, I AM more than mildly intrigued by the "new" 6/4 Wessex EEb ....

[anotherjtm2]

My experience in the part of the US that I live in is that it is fairly common to see community band players playing Eb tubas. To be fair, both of the regions I am basing this statement off of have an active British Brass band, and these Eb players all play in that group. Im sure it may be different when the community band doesn't intersect with a Brass Band, however I still see them quite often. I am happy to see that Eb tubas, and brass bands are becoming more popular in the US.

Brass bands are not common in Texas, so when I joined the local one a year ago, most of the tuba players, for both Bb and Eb parts, used C or F tubas. I played Eb parts on C tuba because that's what I had. Last month I picked up an old Miraphone F tuba, so I'll be playing Eb parts on an F tuba for the next concert.

[2ba4t]

This is a fascinating thread BUT I humbly suggest two points need mentioning:

ONE: I feel someone should quote John Fletcher (as well as the universal approach of nearly all US players) who clearly thought that in a big symphony orchestra playing Russian and other heavy stuff many of the notes are in the two octaves down from the F-clef F down to the FFF below the bass clef. This is fine for an Eb until you hit the four valve notes. Let's be honest. They do sound increasingly slightly restricted and the compensating system becomes less and less effective. The low EEE really needs an additional 73 centimeters [!!!]. Blaikley's provides only about one third of that!

However they are natural, much free-er notes on a CC or BBb. This is what John called 'the bread and butter' range and is so much easier on a CC or BBb.

TWO: CC and BBb tubas sound completely different from F and Ebs - however vast the latter's bores or mouthpieces. The huge sumptuous breadth and darkness of even smaller bore CC and BBb horns is there to heard. Yes, you can play the biggest tubas incredibly delicately, acrobatically, quietly and pretend you are scarcely there, but the sound is always broader and more mellow. However brilliant the player - an EEb sounds like a bass tuba and not a contrabass but, yes, is perfect for those who want that sound. I suspect that even the Wessex Tubby still cannot sound really like a contrabass.

This is perhaps why the majority of players use a medium CC as their all purpose instrument with a vast BBb for the really heavy works. It is a more mellow sound than the [F tuba] Western European composers had in their heads but after the mega-bore expansion of the 1970 - 1990s who cared?!

[barry grrr-ero]

A good Eb tuba is, by far, the most versatile. No one has yet come up with CC tuba with a really great high register. It just doesn't happen. The problem is, no matter what tuba you decide upon, you'll be wishing you had something else for the job that you're doing. That's why people begin collecting lots of tubas to begin with. We're expected to cover everything from what are, quite frankly, euphonium parts, to honking out ridiculously low notes. You already know that - we ALL know that! Furthermore, rooms and acoustics vary tremendously.

There have been times in a quintet when I've looked at a part and handed it back, while saying just this: "This is a bloody euphonium part. I'm not a euphonium player. This is a tuba. If you can get me the score, I'll rewrite the part". Needless to say, I'm not terribly popular with trumpet jocks who just want to get together and play as fast and as 'bright' as possible. I don't care - that's not my thing. I'm out to make music. I'll play quarter notes, half notes and whole notes in a community band, IF they work on doing it 'musically'.

There are tons of generic brass quintets out there, with generic sounding tuba players playing upon their F tubas (usually rotary). They all play fabulously, but they also play with almost no dynamic range. I hate that! I like dynamics - LOTS of dynamics. That's why I like to use a big tuba, but then dial down with smaller mouthpieces when called for. I'm thinking of getting a bloody euphonium for high tessitura, chamber brass stuff. Sam Pilafian did just that. Good luck. I'm of the belief that there is no such thing as just one, 'holy grail' tuba. The tuba means too many different things to too many different people.