TubeNet

Nice to meet you, everyone.
I'm currently on the verge of graduating from university.
Now I'm planning to buy a CC tuba. My budget is about $7000 to $10000.
Currently, the best fit for my budget is Zo's Thunderbird 6/4 tuba, and the meinl weston 2165 tuba, which is old but used until about 4 years ago.

Minel Weston 2165 is owned by a professor at my school. The price is around $7000, and the ZO is about $8500 to $9000.
Oh, I played the Miraphone BBb hagen 496 tuba at the university.
2165 was used by another teacher who plays the orchestra for a long time.
What instruments would be beneficial to buy if the situation were put together?

Personally, neither is something I’d have any interest in. Of your choices, run, don’t walk, to the ZO. The 2165 is too big, too out of tune, and too hard to play. The ZO will give you a fighting chance.

My question to you is, do you NEED a 6/4 tuba? I did the same thing- I went bigger and bigger and I ultimately wasn’t happy. They’re a lot more work to hold, a lot more work to play, and I’m much happier with my smaller, lighter, and more interesting Hirsbrunner HB-2P that I recently acquired.

I’d recommend something more modest in size. Meinl Weston made the 2155 for a while, and they’re excellent. The Hirsbrunner model 2, in either piston or rotary, are also excellent. Lastly, any of the Miraphone tubas would also fit the bill.

Sousaswag wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:43 am Personally, neither is something I’d have any interest in. Of your choices, run, don’t walk, to the ZO. The 2165 is too big, too out of tune, and too hard to play. The ZO will give you a fighting chance.

My question to you is, do you NEED a 6/4 tuba? I did the same thing- I went bigger and bigger and I ultimately wasn’t happy. They’re a lot more work to hold, a lot more work to play, and I’m much happier with my smaller, lighter, and more interesting Hirsbrunner HB-2P that I recently acquired.

I’d recommend something more modest in size. Meinl Weston made the 2155 for a while, and they’re excellent. The Hirsbrunner model 2, in either piston or rotary, are also excellent. Lastly, any of the Miraphone tubas would also fit the bill.

Thank you for your kind advice.
When I played the orchestra and windband with my own F tuba Elektra and the BBb tuba hagen at school, I decided that I needed one 5/4 or 6/4 sized tuba.

That's why I brought here an option to buy or choose within my budget and asked for advice.
Your little advice was very helpful to me. Thank you so much.
If I add Wessex's Wyvern tuba and choose one of the three, what would be good?

The Wyvern plays nice, but my issue with the Chinese stuff is quality. They’re just not up to where the German or Swiss made stuff is.

My advice is to find something used- the new Chinese tubas play nice, but in my experience the metal is very thin and the finish wears very quickly. They play well. They do.

Treat this as an investment- you will almost never get what you paid for the Chinese tubas should you decide to sell later. And, in today’s economy, that’s more impactful.

If you’re set on a 5/4-6/4, get a B&S Pt-6, Pt-6P, MRP, or Meinl Weston Thor. You will pay for them, but they’re all fantastic with very proven track records. I’ve owned all of these at some point or another, and while my Hirsbrunner is the best fit for me, ALL those big horns I mentioned are excellent.

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If I had to pick between the two, I would go with the 2165—known quality, stable(enough) resale value.

Sousaswag wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:43 am Personally, neither is something I’d have any interest in. Of your choices, run, don’t walk, to the ZO. The 2165 is too big, too out of tune, and too hard to play. The ZO will give you a fighting chance.

My question to you is, do you NEED a 6/4 tuba? I did the same thing- I went bigger and bigger and I ultimately wasn’t happy. They’re a lot more work to hold, a lot more work to play, and I’m much happier with my smaller, lighter, and more interesting Hirsbrunner HB-2P that I recently acquired.

I’d recommend something more modest in size. Meinl Weston made the 2155 for a while, and they’re excellent. The Hirsbrunner model 2, in either piston or rotary, are also excellent. Lastly, any of the Miraphone tubas would also fit the bill.

To say that the 6/4 ZO wouldn't have the same problems as a 2165 is disingenuous.

This IS all subjective. I did say that I’d have no interest in owning either. I gave OP my opinion in addition to some other suggestions that they may choose to pursue or not.

Every 2165 I’ve played has given me the impression that I listed here. They are a lot of work to play.

You may very well like them, and that’s fine. The ZO and other York copies have all been easier for me to steer. Again, your experience may be just the opposite.

Either one may give OP the same issues; I merely stated that I don’t care for the 2165. This is TubeNet, after all. Everyone’s going to have a different opinion.

Douglas wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:35 pm If I had to pick between the two, I would go with the 2165—known quality, stable(enough) resale value.

What's important about 2165 here is that it's an old tuba that's about 20 years, up to 25 years old.
I didn't write it down in detail, but I guess it was purchased not long after 2165 was released.

peterbas wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:49 am

tjrwls907 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:59 am
Thank you for your kind advice.
When I played the orchestra and windband with my own F tuba Elektra and the BBb tuba hagen at school, I decided that I needed one 5/4 or 6/4 sized tuba.

That's why I brought here an option to buy or choose within my budget and asked for advice.
Your little advice was very helpful to me. Thank you so much.
If I add Wessex's Wyvern tuba and choose one of the three, what would be good?

The Hagen 496 is already a 5/4 so you are already OK.

Hagen is not my personal tuba. Hagen is a university owned tuba.

tjrwls907 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:32 pm

Douglas wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:35 pm If I had to pick between the two, I would go with the 2165—known quality, stable(enough) resale value.

What's important about 2165 here is that it's an old tuba that's about 20 years, up to 25 years old.
I didn't write it down in detail, but I guess it was purchased not long after 2165 was released.

Why does that matter?

Douglas wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:09 pm

tjrwls907 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:32 pm

Douglas wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:35 pm If I had to pick between the two, I would go with the 2165—known quality, stable(enough) resale value.

What's important about 2165 here is that it's an old tuba that's about 20 years, up to 25 years old.
I didn't write it down in detail, but I guess it was purchased not long after 2165 was released.

Why does that matter?

The time I wrote down is likely to be the minimum time.
I have little experience playing instruments that have been used for more than 10 years. This converges to zero if you go to CTuba.
I have no doubt that 2165 is a great Tuba. But the instrument hasn't worked out for about four years. And I'm not sure if I can control 2165 confidently.
I'm afraid I'm ruining that good tuba.

One important thing to remember is every instrument has its own unique characteristics. You could play 10 of the same instrument and they will all play a little different, one or two seeming awful, and maybe, not always, one feeling great.

I have played only a handful of 2165 CC tubas, some good, some bad, one really bad...I currently own one that I've had for about 10 years, it's amazing. I have a list of folks that would buy it in a second.

I don't use this horn all that often, I'd say it's more of a utility horn than an all-purpose CC tuba. It's big and very heavy. We're currently rehearsing Das Rheingold so it's getting a workout, but I typically use a 4/4 horn or oftentimes F tuba for my orchestra work. This horn is awesome for band concerts and outdoor gigs, not that I do many of those anymore.

I would suggest looking at everything in your price range and find the best horn you can that fits your budget. Don't limit yourself. I've had no problems supporting a full orchestra with my 3/4 Rudy CC, my 4/4 Alexander CC, and of course, the 6/4 2165 CC. Good luck on the search, you don't have to buy THE tuba right now, you just need to buy A tuba that helps you along your journey.

JB

Despite being the owner of two different Chinese-made CC tubas over the last few years (both Eastman in my case), I would still strongly argue for the 2165. German-made horns still hold their resale value much more highly than horns from various parts of Asia, although that is slowly changing. And again, despite loving my Eastman 6/4, I can recognize that the build quality of a MW horn would be quantifiably higher. And in this case, it sounds like it would be cheaper, so it's a no-brainer for me--go with the 2165.

If it were me and these were my options, I would buy the used 2165 for $1500-2000 less and use the difference to take the horn to Martin Wilk, tell him your repair/customization budget and consider MAW valves if the modern larger 2165 valves (all four or maybe just 4th valve?), the smaller 45slp leadpipe (or other smaller leadpipe), a Dillon AGR, and/or Saturn waterkeys. If weight is a concern, the 2165 does have a lot of extra that could be removed (and could be put back if you don’t like the difference): triple bottom bow wires, the “tone ring” in the bell, heck, you could have the bell buffed a bit, but that won’t be reversible.

Address any repair, cleaning, and maintenance issues, as these will likely make as much or more difference than the custom options I listed!

All that said, I like messing with equipment… either of these horns plus that Elektra should cover anything you need equipment-wise to be competitive in auditions. The other 95% of being competitive is, of course, practicing, listening, recording yourself, etc.

My 2c,
T. J.

I would ask: Why CC at all? The days of BBb tubas being considered "student" tubas are pretty much over. If you're a good BBb tuba player you can get a better (with fewer problems) big BBb tuba for less money than most big CC tubas. I fell for that "pros play CC" nonsense when I was young, too. I have stuck with it for many years and am now considering going back to BBb because I can get more of what I want for less money.

Easy Mac wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:37 pm I would ask: Why CC at all? The days of BBb tubas being considered "student" tubas are pretty much over. If you're a good BBb tuba player you can get a better (with fewer problems) big BBb tuba for less money than most big CC tubas. I fell for that "pros play CC" nonsense when I was young, too. I have stuck with it for many years and am now considering going back to BBb because I can get more of what I want for less money.

I agree with you to some extent. Easy Mac.
If so, is there a BBb Tuba that I can recommend from the amount I suggested?

I played 3/4 Bb Tuba since middle school and 3 years in high school I played F Tuba. After that, I mixed and practiced at the university.
In a way, it's possible for me that the BBb tuba is an easier or more familiar instrument.

T. J. Ricer wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:53 pm If it were me and these were my options, I would buy the used 2165 for $1500-2000 less and use the difference to take the horn to Martin Wilk, tell him your repair/customization budget and consider MAW valves if the modern larger 2165 valves (all four or maybe just 4th valve?), the smaller 45slp leadpipe (or other smaller leadpipe), a Dillon AGR, and/or Saturn waterkeys. If weight is a concern, the 2165 does have a lot of extra that could be removed (and could be put back if you don’t like the difference): triple bottom bow wires, the “tone ring” in the bell, heck, you could have the bell buffed a bit, but that won’t be reversible.

Address any repair, cleaning, and maintenance issues, as these will likely make as much or more difference than the custom options I listed!

All that said, I like messing with equipment… either of these horns plus that Elektra should cover anything you need equipment-wise to be competitive in auditions. The other 95% of being competitive is, of course, practicing, listening, recording yourself, etc.

My 2c,
T. J.

Another teacher of mine answered.
As a result, as you said, the answer came back to me to see the match at a slightly lower price.
I'm going to start a deal with the professor to find some compromise.

T. J. Ricer wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:53 pm If it were me and these were my options, I would buy the used 2165 for $1500-2000 less and use the difference to take the horn to Martin Wilk, tell him your repair/customization budget and consider MAW valves if the modern larger 2165 valves (all four or maybe just 4th valve?), the smaller 45slp leadpipe (or other smaller leadpipe), a Dillon AGR, and/or Saturn waterkeys. If weight is a concern, the 2165 does have a lot of extra that could be removed (and could be put back if you don’t like the difference): triple bottom bow wires, the “tone ring” in the bell, heck, you could have the bell buffed a bit, but that won’t be reversible.

Address any repair, cleaning, and maintenance issues, as these will likely make as much or more difference than the custom options I listed!

All that said, I like messing with equipment… either of these horns plus that Elektra should cover anything you need equipment-wise to be competitive in auditions. The other 95% of being competitive is, of course, practicing, listening, recording yourself, etc.

My 2c,
T. J.

This is good advice.

I will note that I have an old 2165 with the "small valves" and I have the MAW valves.

The 45SLP leadpipe is a great mod.

Regarding intonation, I see no issues with my 2165. IMO, a lot of these issues are a mismatch of mouthpiece to the horn. Coupled with playing the 2165 with the same approach to whatever they were playing prior. The 2165 is a slightly different flavor of 6/4 CC "York" style tuba since it's really more derivative of the Holton 345s of the past.

Sousaswag wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:43 am Personally, neither is something I’d have any interest in. Of your choices, run, don’t walk, to the ZO. The 2165 is too big, too out of tune, and too hard to play. The ZO will give you a fighting chance.

My question to you is, do you NEED a 6/4 tuba? I did the same thing- I went bigger and bigger and I ultimately wasn’t happy. They’re a lot more work to hold, a lot more work to play, and I’m much happier with my smaller, lighter, and more interesting Hirsbrunner HB-2P that I recently acquired.

I’d recommend something more modest in size. Meinl Weston made the 2155 for a while, and they’re excellent. The Hirsbrunner model 2, in either piston or rotary, are also excellent. Lastly, any of the Miraphone tubas would also fit the bill.

The 2165 though humongous fits my stature quite well I'm 6'2 so not the tallest tuba player by far, but it doesnt feel un-manageable. It really depends on the 2165 you get, mine is extremely easy to play, has pretty good intonation apart from the standard 6/4 quirks like in the staff F being ridiculously sharp. I will give that playing a 2165 with a rt-50 then a laskey 32h was a bit worse on the tuning side of things but now that ive settled on the 30h the tuning quirks have mellowed out a little bit.

TLDR just try the horn before you buy the horn.