YFB-621 as a big euphonium?

[SethLegare]

Does anyone know how well a YFB-621 might work for achieving an "F-euphonium" sound? I am a euphonium player, and of the opinion that nearly all tubas (and most compensating euphoniums, in fact) are too woofy, indistinct, and lacking in high overtones, so I am seeking something that I can put a small (like 29mm) mouthpiece in and really light up. Would it be worth going out of my way to find and try one of these small Yamahas? Or should I pursue German-style rotary F horns?

To be honest, what I really want is like a 12 or 13" bell 3/4 G tuba in the German or French style, but I'm never going to find that, and I can't imagine that cutting 15" out of an F tuba or adding 20" to a kaiser baritone or saxhorn could possibly end well.

[MKTuba]

I guess I’m not sure why you want this, but the YFB621 is about as close to what you want as you will get. One of the more well known tuba professors in my state is pretty well known for playing some of the common Euph rep on his 621 f tuba. He sounds great!

[iiipopes]

If you must use a tuba for a euph, you need a 3/4 tuba with something like the .661 bore of a Yammy 3/4 or similar. You are also describing the upper range of a French C tuba with a larger bore than a typical euph. A Conn 2J or 3J may actually work better, even if it is pitched in concert C.

Frankly, your "woofiness" may be mouthpiece related instead. I play a B&H 3-valve comp euph occasionally, and I use a Wick Ultra 6 instead of the larger popular mouthpieces, such as a Shilke 51D, Wick 5 or 4 or 3 variants, etc. It gives me definition and clarity so I can blend with the Tuba Christmas crowd, as euph is not my primary instrument. The Ultra 6 is essentially the same as a Bach 6 1/2 AL, with a deeper cup and restructured throat and backbore, so the lower register does not get grainy. The throat and backbore allow the player have authority in the middle register and sing the upper register.

[T. J. Ricer]

It sounds like you might enjoy a British F tuba… there are a few originals still floating around and Wessex now makes a copy that I haven’t played, but have heard good things about. 13” bell comes standard and you can’t get more euph-like than a compensating horn!

That said, I usually point doublers toward Eb. Either the compensating Bessons with a 15” bell or the non-comp Yamaha YEB-321 sound up your alley.

Just opinions on the internet,
T. J.

[SethLegare]

It sounds like you might enjoy a British F tuba… there are a few originals still floating around and Wessex now makes a copy that I haven’t played, but have heard good things about. 13” bell comes standard and you can’t get more euph-like than a compensating horn!

Yeah I've been thinking about that one, too, but I'm really not a fan of compensating horns. I've never heard a good sound come out of one in the mid-to-low range, even when played by masters like David Werden, Steven Mead, or David Childs. I play euph because I didn't know much as a middle school kid, and I've been considering switching to French C for tenor and alto range stuff. I guess I just like a punchy sound more than most.

Thanks for the advice!
Seth

[SethLegare]

I guess I’m not sure why you want this, but the YFB621 is about as close to what you want as you will get. One of the more well known tuba professors in my state is pretty well known for playing some of the common Euph rep on his 621 f tuba. He sounds great!

I'm interested in getting this sort of sound because I want to blend well with voices when playing bass vocal parts and similar in a church setting. It would mostly be me, a piano, and a trumpet or cornet, so I don't need the wide, supportive sound necessary in an orchestra, but I do need easier access to the notes just below the staff, down to about C.

Thanks!

[SethLegare]

Does anyone know whether the removable 5th valve slide insert could be added to the 3rd valve to give a flat semitone 5th and two tones 3rd? That would maintain full chromaticism and give some interesting alternate fingerings.

[Sousaswag]

Why not just use your euphonium then? You’re seeking something that already exists; a euphonium. I’ve not had clarity issue on the bass tuba; that’s why we use it. They both have more natural agility than the big horns. I guess I struggle to understand why a euphonium player wants to work harder than needed. Why do you want to use the F tuba over the euphonium?

[TubaBeage]

How about a bass trombone?

[SethLegare]

Why do you want to use the F tuba over the euphonium?

I need a new horn of some sort; my current one is very old, beat up, hard to play in tune, and not fully chromatic. I've been weighing my options, and since I find myself mostly playing from about C or D below the staff up to about A at the top, I feel that an F tuba might be easier than a euphonium. Even an octave below that is totally possible on a euphonium, but I don't think a euphonium would be many people's first choice for frequently jumping down there. Plus I tend to prefer the sound of all brass instruments when playing above their 2nd partial. I may decide to just buy a new euphonium and slap a big mouthpiece in it, I'm not sure yet.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Have you considered a “tenor tuba”? I have an Alex tenor tuba (same pitch as a euphonium), which has a somewhat leaner sound than my Yamaha 642 euphonium. It is a 5 valve, non-compensating horn. I really like the sound!

[SethLegare]

Oh that's a decent idea. That would be the 151 model, right?

I've listened to some recordings now, and that instrument can definitely produce the kind of sound I like in the middle and high register. If they didn't cost so much, it would be a no-brainer choice for playing tenor parts. I think a small F tuba might still be my choice for the lower stuff.

Thanks for pointing that instrument out!

[Sousaswag]

The issue that you’ll have with the bass tuba is that it’s quite difficult to play up in the stratosphere for long periods of time. That’s why I questioned why you’d want to do all the extra work when that’s what a euphonium is just made to do.

What is your specific use for a bass tuba? Like, where/with whom are you playing? What’s the instrumentation/group size to justify the F tuba over a euphonium? I use mine all the time; but I’d never take it to play a trombone or euph part… I have a trombone or euph for that role.

For chamber music, yeah, take the bass tuba. But don’t pay a lot for a 621… Just buy the c. $2K clone of it from China and be done.

[SethLegare]

Oh yeah for sure I would be buying used or a clone.

I'll be honest: I'm a total amateur, playing for my own enjoyment, and occasionally doing duets/trios in church. I wouldn't consider below the 6th partial to be "in the stratosphere", so I'm not worried about working too hard. I've been practicing everything I play up a 4th or 5th on euphonium, just to see how it might feel on an instrument pitched a 4th lower, and I actually like it better. Even Bydlo (which I will never play in concert ever) feels fine to me played up a 4th. I've stuck a Bach 18 tuba mouthpiece into the 1st valve tuning slide and used that to play my euphonium (GREAT pedal tones! A0 on a euphonium is hilarious) and I'm comfortable using that size mouthpiece in the region I generally play in. As you'd expect, I get shaky around high A above middle C with that setup, but that's a full octave above what I'm usually playing.

[MKTuba]

I personally still really don't understand why you would choose a tuba for this task, but it sounds like you would enjoy learning how to play. Might I suggest an Eb tuba? These are a little easier for Euph players to transition to: usually compensating and with more manageable intonation than most F tubas. Also much better ergonomics if you get a 3+1 style. Wessex makes a little 3/4 eb that may suit your needs perfectly.

Also, playing that register in the f tuba is a little different than on euphonium. That large mouthpiece doesn't really lend itself to extended time in the high register without first spending a lot of time playing in the low register to build endurance. Putting a tuba mouthpiece in a euphonium isn't at all representative of what it feels like to play a tuba, and shouldn't be your basis for what this experience is like.

Basically, do whatever you want to do. It sounds like you would have fun learning tuba, but I don't really think you are approaching it the right way. Either way, have fun making music and make sure not to sink too much money into a horn you don't end up vibing with.

[SethLegare]

That's part of the problem, really. I don't want a tuba. I want something between a tuba and euphonium. I've played a YBB-641 in a youth orchestra for a season because they wouldn't take euphonium players, and I don't want that.

My hope was that an F tuba with a small mouthpiece might be the most obtainable option, since I'm never going to find a French saxhorn in G, or a recently produced and reasonably priced Vienna tuba or Moritz and Weiprecht sized F. Tuba players these days seem to want contrabass F tubas, leaving people like me who want a truly intermediate instrument with fewer options.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Another thought comes to mind; the Meinl Weston 182 F tuba. It is even smaller than a Yamaha 621!

I am sensing that you are looking for a lighter sounding instrument, and I don’t think you can get a lighter tone in an instrument, that is still called “tuba”.

[MKTuba]

I really think you are looking for a unicorn here. Is there any reason you cant get a euphonium or baritone horn? That seems like it would really solve your issues. A Yamaha 321 would be a good option. What about a Medium bore wilson? If you think that a compensating euphonium sounds too woofy, why do you think a tuba will sound any lighter?

At the end of the day, I don't think that an F tuba is the right option for you. I think there is more merit in learning how to play your equipment in the setting required than buying equipment for a particularly setting. Especially in the scenario you outlined where you are mostly doing this in church, I don't think it is worth it to buy an instrument for this specific task. Especially since you are a middle school student, probably not getting paid to play. But if you are a 10-14 year old with a steady, paid gig, more power to you. If money is absolutely no object then why not, but I know you will learn more about music by just getting better at the euphonium, and working on your low register than trying to pursue the tuba with the intent of never using the real low register of the instrument.

What don't you like about the low register of the players you outlined? I think they are some of the only euph players out there that have examples of good low register playing. Many euph players start to sweat when they see anything lower than a Bb in the bass clef, and have a thin, unsupported tone in that register. Not these players. They have solid sounds in the low register.

The last suggestion I could make is to maybe pursue a smaller Travel Tuba from Wessex, Mack, or Jinboa. Maybe this will solve your... unique... problem.

EDIT: every once and awhile you see old G bugles from Drum corps. Often times they only have 1 or 2 valves. Finding a G baritone (pitched a minor third lower than a standard euph) and getting a few valves added may be the closest that you will come to what you want.

[Sousaswag]

Face the reality here: you’re young. Rather than throwing your (or, more likely, your parents’ money) at a $X,XXX specialty instrument, take Michael’s advice and spend time getting GREAT at either the tuba or the euphonium. Or both. Nothing stops you from doubling. I’m not trying to discourage you; but you don’t have any need for an F tuba at your age. You’re not advanced enough to have a real need for one anyway.

Now for the fun answer: The MW 182 is probably the most euph-like F tuba one can buy. Crappy low register, singing high register. I’d buy that over a 621 if I wanted to pretend to be a euph player rather than just play a euph.

[SethLegare]

Thank you Z-Tuba Dude for the suggestion of a Meinl Weston 182. That instrument is very close to what I'm looking for I think. It costs about twice as much as I was hoping to spend, but now I know to keep an eye out for one on the used market or something.

I don't know where you all got the idea that I'm a middle schooler. I'm 28, married, with a stable job in industry, and want a hobby. I've saved up some money by living responsibility, and I want to spend a portion of it on something I enjoy doing. Tubas are honestly pretty cheap compared to many hobbies.

I'm already playing a Yamaha 321, and have been since 2009. I listed those euphonium players precisely because they have some of the best low registers I've ever heard, and it's still not a sound that I prefer. I guess I wouldn't say that the sound is woofy so much as muted or muffled, and tubas don't sound like that in the same register, I guess because the air resistance is so much lower at the same pitch.

Since I have no hope of ever coming close to those masters, I know I'll never like the sound I make down there on a normal euphonium.

I'm fully aware that I'm looking for a unicorn, which is why I was asking advice on whether more common instruments might be able to do what I wanted. I didn't come here to be told I was being stupid, I was hoping for respectful discourse about what I asked about.

Seth "the bored wacko" Legare