recording microphone

[circusboy]

I know. We've been here before, but I've been doing more thinking and more researching, which has largely led to more questions.

Primary question: It seems that most folks recommend a kick-drum type of dynamic mic for tuba (Beta 52A, D112, e602/902, Audix 4/6, DTP 340/640, etc.). This makes sense, especially for someone playing rock, blues or anything more percussive or heavy. HOWEVER, I saw a video of an engineer recording a tuba playing classical music who said the only way to go was a large diaphragm condenser (AKG P120 or several by AT, etc.). This makes sense for anything softer, more melodic, less just bass and more harmonic nuance.

What do y'all think? Any best compromise for someone like me who wants to play both ways? Anyone REALLY happy with what they've got now? Why?

Anyone tried that Lewitt DTP 640 Rex that has both dynamic and LDC mics built in?

[Please, I don't want to hear "Just put a SM57 in a sock and toss it in the bell."]

Thanks.

[tadawson]

It's not a condenser, but I would think the large diaphragm EV RE-20 or RE-320 would be outstanding.

[tubajoe]

I always recommend (and fight!) for a ribbon mic. …and one that’s a bit on the darker side. A Royer 121 is probably my top choice. It will give you the most with which to work. AEA R84A works well too.

Large diaphragm condensers (Neumann 47/ 87 etc) will record bright. BUT… if you have a very experienced and skilled engineer and great setup, good things can be done with them.. but in mixing the sound will probably need to be expanded to get the warmth you probably want.
9 out of 10 times, when an engineer puts up their favorite $XXXXX vintage condenser and we then A/B it with a ribbon, the engineer goes “oh yeah the ribbon sounds better!” In fact, this was the case with the last session I did.

Bass drum mics, or something like a RE20 or a SM7 will record really bright and pretty thin with a barky cough-y sound. I usually try to avoid them… but occasionally they can come in handy where when the tuba is not isolated and you need something very directional.

If you want to get daring, use multiple types of mics and blend them.

Also, what preamp you are using with the mic can make a big difference… as well as the room, environment and mic placement, as well as the type of tuba bell. Take time to experiment to get the sound you want… and most engineers don’t really know how to record a tuba (even if they say they do!) Lobby for some time to experiment if you can. Lastly, the compression and EQ are huuuge factors as well as what the sound you want / or is needed. Lobby as best you can to keep the tuba sound warm and fat!

And yes, a SM58 CAN work… it’s not ideal as it wont give you as much to work with, but it’s actually not all that bad. (the most widely-distributed thing I ever played on was done on a good ol 58!)

The initial tone is not as important as the depth and width of the raw sound — width and depth will give more options once you mix. (and yes this applies to classical environments just as much as other things). Think of it like bandwidth. The mic is a place to start and should have a huge spectrum of sound. In my opinion, it’s better to have too much sound and thin it out if you need, rather than the opposite.

A good budget-priced home setup? A Focusrite 2i2 interface and a Cascade Fathead.

[circusboy]

Thanks for these replies!

I've heard a lot of good about those EV's, tadawson. Probably worth a closer look.

SO interesting that you brought up the Cascade Fathead (now rebranded as "Pinnacle Fat Top"), tubajoe! I just came across those and am looking pretty seriously at them. Appreciate the rec of the interface, too.

Another question, since this is really solo work recorded at home, is mixing for stereo. Can that be done with the input of a single mic through the wonders of modern technology? Could I get somewhat separate signals to mix from the two sides of the Fat Top? (This is part of the appeal of the Lewitt DTP 640 Rex with it's built-in two channels.)

Also, regarding the Fat Tops, would you put one on a stand, vertically, a few feet in front of you or on a boom a couple of feet over and facing the bell? AND, though it's getting out of my price range, I wonder about the Cascade/Pinnacle 2-mic setup that comes with a Blumlein bar for true stereo.

[tubajoe]

Ribbons are almost always mono - and I record mono pretty much of the time even if I use multiple mics (I record to separate tracks then combine them into a single mono stem) You’ll save yourself a lot of headache just doing it in mono and getting the best tone you can.

…that said, if you are multitracking / layering yourself, stereo can be super fun. …but still you’ll be probably utilizing mono tracks.

A nice thing about the ribbons is they wont barf out when you hit them with a brighter sound. They are darker overall, but you can crank highs out of them where needed. I believe it’s easier to control the highs. Some of the condensers will emphasize the highs, but will cut the low-mids, which is where most of the tuba sound lives.

And of course if you are doing a live capture in a big room or concert hall (and want the room ambiance as part of the sound), you’ll want an exact matched stereo pair of mics. That’s a a different ball of wax, equipment and science all on its own, different than tracking something with a more close-mic’d setup.

For normal tracking, I use a boom stand and depending on the horn, slightly off axis 12-18 inches above the bell. The center of the tuba sound is where the brighter harmonics live… with a bright horn like my ol Miraphone 186, I go pretty far off axis… about even with the edge of the bell. If recording with a larger bell like an Eastman 836 or a sousaphone, I’ll go a more into the center to get a bit crisper sound and avoid some of the foof. Some folks like to place the mic actually to the side of the tuba as well - totally outside the direction of the bell… I don’t do this, but some do this to add fatter sound… this might work well if using a small F tuba In general, the more direct sound = brighter, the further away and more ambient = darker. I usually aspire for something in the middle if I can. My goal is to give the most options when editing, mixing etc.

Experiment and see what you can come up with!

Of course YMMV, but here’s some examples of sessions on various mics. All have a basically unaffected sorta normal-ish tuba sound recorded in a very similar manner. All were played on an old very normal Miraphone 186 CC, except for the last one which was on a very dark sounding old Keefer “wagnerphone” sousaphone. Most of these have semi-exposed moments, some are soloistic, some are within an ensemble but the tuba has audible moments. My reason for posting is that beyond the style, you can hear some of the differences. Despite the variety of genre styles, I recorded them with essentially the same approach / placement etc.

1.) Single Cascade Fathead
https://youtu.be/c6Jq2q3mcvk

2.) A Cascade Fathead modded with a Lundahl transformer (now the Fat Top II)
https://youtu.be/lrZX5avxQ6Q

3.) Royer 121
https://youtu.be/SbBqXakbC2M

4.) AEA R84A
https://youtu.be/ZhHXtTy2-Jw

5.) Vintage Neumann 47 (tho blended into the ensemble, but gives a lot of bright punch)
https://youtu.be/wV7GijG9ZWY

6.) Shure SM58 - there’s 2-4 layers of tuba here (all me), it’s tracked within an ensemble setting, but pokes out the second half of the song.
https://youtu.be/PDdmCdbvx0U

7.) Shure SM7b - *not* my favorite sound… it’s extremely bright and I was playing a *very* dark sounding horn (this mic was used due to it’s specific directional capabilities, to mimimize bleed in a group situation) Note: an EV RE20 will be a similar sound to the SM7b as they are both broadcast radio voice mics. …but an RE20 will be even more crispy and brittle.
https://youtu.be/T0zfSMuoR9o

[circusboy]

Wow, Joe! I'm really grateful that you took the time to put this together. Really helpful. (And some great playing, btw.)

Yes, I think I'll start recording mono and see what I can do with layering and such if I find that I'm missing stereo.

I completely hear what you're saying about the Neumann and Shures. Of the ribbons, though it's a bit tough to parse, given the different ensembles and styles, I think I actually like the Cascades better than their more expensive cousins. Possible? Seems like a larger and more natural bottom.

In looking at the Pinnacles website (fka Cascade), I find it difficult to understand the differences among their mics. I think I'll give them a call to discuss.

One more question: Do you find the Cascades to be fragile? I don't expect I'll be banging them around too much, but I've heard that ribbon mics are more fragile than others, and they sure do highlight available repairs on the site.

[DylanTuba]

I prefer 2 ribbon mics in a blumlein pair setup for recording solo tuba. I've tried quite a lot of ribbon mics, mostly Royer (Royer 121, SF-24, R10, etc) and just really don't like how dark the sound can get, can sound almost muffled at times, especially in a bigger space. My go to Ribbons are the Samar Audio AL95s, for a ribbon mic they have great clarity and are slightly brighter than anything Royer, but still have that Ribbon warmth (plus not to mention a affordable price tag for an extremely high quality Ribbon). This combo really helps in my opinion bring out the best in the tuba sound, which is already very heavy in lower frequencies.

If going condenser, which is a very close second choice, I really like a large diaphragm condenser over small diaphragm for tuba. Vintage U87s are pretty perfect in my opinion for tuba recording. You get a little bit more of that brightness and clarity that condensers help out with while still getting a very full body of sound from the very large diaphragm U87. My preferred setup if possible is a spot mic up close, behind the bell, and a spaced AB pair to mix in room sound.

[tadawson]

FYI, the RE20 is *NOT* a kick drum mic (although it does work well for that). It is more often used for vocals and broadcast apps, and has a very wide and smooth frequency response, no proximity effect, and tolderance of high spl, all of which are valuable for micing brass instrumentation.