Helleberg 7B vs, 120S (I'm sure this has been discussed often)

[barry grrr-ero]

I recently acquired a Chinese copy of a Conn Helleberg 120S, as curiosity got the best of me. It turns out that this is a good, 'all around' mouthpiece to tame the beast that is my B&S rotary "Neptune". A Wessex "Nickles" lends more punch and dynamics (but a tad less stability and security), while my stainless steel Kellyberg gets a really, really 'dark' sound. I think the Kellyberg is more similar to the 7B. The Wessex Nickles is the most 'fun' of the three mouthpieces to play. Now a bit of explanation . . . .

There was a long, long gap in my tuba playing, due mostly to financial and family issues (the usual things). When I was young Conn made the 7b Helleberg and the MUCH bigger "Chief". There was no 120S. Can somebody inform me as to roughly when Conn introduced the 120S, and what it was the 120s was based upon? Do we know who designed it? By chance, was the 120s an attempt to meld the Helleberg 7b to the old Conn 2? I would find any info. interesting. Thanks.

I guess everybody and their brother/sister makes a Helleberg, just as everybody and their brother/sister makes a Geib. I enjoy the flatter, thinner rims.

Barry Guerrero; Santa Cruz, Ca

[circusboy]

I'm a fan of Helleberg designs, too, my fave being the Giddings Taku. I can't say that I know anything about dates and history, but it was my understanding that the 120s was modeled after the original Helleberg. This indicates to me that it's the older one.

I'm pretty sure that the Kellyberg is closer to the 120s than the 7B, the latter being much smaller.

My 2 cents. Others invited to correct me if I'm wrong.

[barry grrr-ero]

Well that's interesting. I also own a nameless copy of what was supposed to have been a truly 'original' Helleberg (in Euroshank). That m.p. is slightly more narrow than the 7B. The person who sold me that m.p. did tell me who made it, but I'm afraid I've forgotten the name and I didn't keep that e-mail (apparently). All of these are good, and I can play any of them. I just find the 120s to be a good match to the "Neptune".

[the elephant]

There was the first CONN HELLEBERG (no number), around for many decades I think, and later they introduced the CONN HELLEBERG 7B. I neither know when it was brought out, nor what the 7B describes, but it is smaller with a goofy rim that I can't stand. [My stainless Kellyberg appears to be a 7B with the 120 rim, but I have never cared enough to measure any of these mouthpieces.]

I think in the late 1990s (perhaps earlier, I really do not know) the original size/shape CONN HELLEBERG received the 120 name. (I suspect that the "S" just means silver, as, back in the 1980s I had never seen one of the more modern teardrop-shaped ones that was not fully gold plated.)

My first Helleberg was one made in the 1960s that Mike Sanders used on his Alex in his early years in the San Antonio Symphony. He had had it drilled out because he "wanted to make a lot of noise". I loved it, but never settled into the large throat. I bought seveal more new over the years, and none of them made me happy until I found another made in the same era with the identical rim profile (checked visually, side-by-side). and I still play that one for some things.

I like the old teardrop Hellebergs from the 1960s, but I have never played on one from the early days with the Miraphone-looking outer shell shape.

If anyone *knows* more about the design and liniage of the 7B it would be great if you shared with us here. I have never played one for more than a few minutes at a stretch because of the rim, and it has always been a bit of a mystery to me.

[IROB]

There were actually many original Hellebergs mouthpieces all a bit different. He had many made and would get new options made whenever he got a new horn.

The 7b and the 120 as they exist today are fine mouthpieces and very consistent. It was not that way in the past.

The much earlier conn Hellebergs were not at all consistent. They were all labeled Helleberg but some quite a bit smaller or larger. I have Jacobs very first Conn Helleberg he got in The 1930s. This is a smaller Helleberg. The CHI Brass Jacobs 1 is a copy of this. The CHI Brass Jacobs 2 is copied from another 1930s era Helleberg that Jacobs owned. The 1960s era ones varied but the good ones were great.

The Floyd Colley Helleberg that Floyd had made in the early 90s was based on a smallish 7b sized Conn Helleberg from the 1960s. From what I was told it belonged to Dennis Miller. Floyd improved it and added a rim that Floyd painstakingly worked to perfect over several years on it. Anyone liking a 7b but not the rim should try to find one of the originals Floyd made or the CHI Brass Floyd Cooley 1.

In the 90s Floyd also made 10 slightly larger Hellebergs labeled Floyd Cooley 2 that were scaled up with his rim contour. Very hard to find an original for sale but the CHI Floyd Cooley 2 is a copy of one of them.

The CHI ones have modern shank options American, standard, or Euro, the originals Floyd made only had one shank size. The CHI versions also have a little more weight in the shell and we also have heavyweight shells available.

Hope this is interesting to all.

[barry grrr-ero]

That's very interesting to me. The Floyd Cooley Hellebergs rarely ever come up for sale. I would like to own an F.C. 2, for sentimental reasons if for none other. I studied briefly with him in the middle 1970's. I stayed in contact with Floyd over the years, but I was never his favorite. I was too young when I started with him; wanting to be a jazz bass trombonist as much as a 'legit' tubist. Now everything he ever said to me comes roaring back. I feel like he's right there, reminding me of stuff when I practice. What a sound he had!

[TheBerlinerTuba]

https://brassandpipes.wordpress.com/202 ... d-friends/

[IROB]

Barry 100% agree on Floyd’s sound especially at soft dynamics. He could play incredibly soft but beautiful and somehow with the intensity behind it of playing ff. His solo recordings are amazing and every Tubist should own them but hearing him play those pieces live was awe inspiring and jaw dropping. I was very fortunate to be studying with him when he was at the height of his playing and working on the mouthpiece and Nirschl York projects.

[IROB]

https://brassandpipes.wordpress.com/202 ... d-friends/

I have read this before several times and if you would like photos and descriptions of the Arnold Jacobs owned older Helleberg mouthpieces I currently own or have access to and or the new CHI Brass Helleberg based models I would be honored to contribute.

[TheBerlinerTuba]

That is very kind of you and I would be grateful for any information.
Perhaps best would be to write me mail(at)berlinertuba.com

https://brassandpipes.wordpress.com/202 ... d-friends/

I have read this before several times and if you would like photos and descriptions of the Arnold Jacobs owned older Helleberg mouthpieces I currently own or have access to and or the new CHI Brass Helleberg based models I would be honored to contribute.