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If it is a non-compensating Bb euphonium, then 4 should be about the same as 1&3, that is, D, or a concert C. If you pulled out the 12&3 slides to adjust to the new fundamental, you'd have a VERY small CC tuba. You could, however, read concert scores an octave low...

Yes, the 4th valve essentially puts a Bb instrument in F. The 4th valve lowers the pitch by 2 1/2 steps, taking your low Bb down to an F. If it is compensating then the notes should almost be in tune. In theory you could lock down the 4th valve and play with F fingerings, but most notes, especially in the high range, will be stuffier because you are adding a lot of relatively narrow cylindircal tubing with lots of bends in it.

windshieldbug wrote:If it is a non-compensating Bb euphonium, then 4 should be about the same as 1&3, that is, D, or a concert C. If you pulled out the 12&3 slides to adjust to the new fundamental, you'd have a VERY small CC tuba. You could, however, read concert scores an octave low...

Nah, it'd be in F like Mr Imperial said whether it's compensating or not. The C is the 5th and the F is the fundamental.

Rather use a non-comp for this purpose. Mr Jacobs auditioned at Curtis with an Eb tuba with the 4th valve taped down to play it as a Bb. Rather him than me...!

Lew wrote:Yes, the 4th valve essentially puts a Bb instrument in F. The 4th valve lowers the pitch by 2 1/2 steps, taking your low Bb down to an F. If it is compensating then the notes should almost be in tune.

Peach wrote:The C is the 5th and the F is the fundamental.

Sorry, you're quite right.
I should have said:

If it is a Bb euphonium, then 4 should be about the same as 1&3, that is, G, or a concert F. On a non-compensating horn you'd need pulled out the 12&3 slides to adjust to the new fundamental; It will be the same length as an F horn, and, if you know the fingerings, letting the fourth valve up will be the same as playing on the Bb side of a double horn.

If you are a treble clef reader, you may just want to go with what you know (sort of), and read the part down an octave.

Sorry my brain was disengaged!

They'll sound a bit funny being a fourth lower than you're used to, the response of the horn will be sluggish, but yes, I believe you could do exactly that.

Yes,

I am a euphoniumist and I have locked 4th valve down and played F-horn parts. You read them as transposed treble clef, i.e. "c" open, "g" open, "f" and B flat" 1, "e" and "a" 1-2. I use it to read duets with my horn students, but intonation can be squirrelly.

Imperial wrote:
So which is the best: non-compensating or compensating?

Peach: What is your reason for using a non-compensating horn for this purpose?

Non-Comp because the airway would have to only go through 1 valve (4th) as 'standard' to make the horn in F. With the slides pulled a relevant amount, the thing might play ok.

On a comper with the 4th down the air will always be passing back through the main valveset which will make it more stuffy. Things get a lot worse when you use valves 1-3 as each one has two sets of slides to pass through (the regular set AND the comp side). This is why the horn would be extra-stuffy.

I usually play tuba but have sometimes had to play euphonium in the absence of a proper euphonium player.
I find it easier to read euphonium music in treble clef, but sometimes the euphonium part is only written in bass clef and then I sometimes "cheat" by holding down the fourth valve and using F tuba fingerings. One of the euphonia I have played even has a switch (for want of a better word) that locks down the fourth valve.
On a compensating horn, the intonation is usually OK, but it is rather stuffy. On a non-compensating horn there is less resistance and the sound is nicer, but intonation can be shaky.

A euphonium with compensating valves should behave like a reasonably in-tune three-valve F tuba when the fourth valve is locked down. It will be stuffy because the taper design and mouthpiece aren't optimal for a bass tuba in F. Also, it adds a lot of tubing to the bugle, not to mention the additional twists and turns.

It would be hard to demonstrate that any three-valve F tuba could be reasonably in tune, especially in the lower register. The sharpness of the 1-3 and 1-2-3 combinations will be as bad as on any three-valve instrument. But if you only know F fingerings and the music is high in the range, it will work.

A non-compensating euphonium will not work very well, because the valve combinations with the fourth valve will not be in tune. You could lock down the fourth valve and retune the other valve slides, however.

Arnold Jacobs knew how to play the Carnival of Venice on Bb tuba when he auditioned for Curtis at age 15. He didn't own his own tuba, however, and was forced to perform his audition on an Eb tuba. He taped down the fourth valve, and retuned all the other valve slides to make a three-valve Bb tuba. It worked well enough to get him into Curtis, heh, heh.

The compensation adds in the extra tubing automatically so that you don't have to retune the individual valve slides. So, it's possible to think of a compensating euphonium as a double instrument, where some notes are better in tune "on the Bb side" and others are better "on the F side". It's just another way to think about it. With a non-compensating euphonium, everything is "on the Bb side" but you have more valves to play with to achieve acceptable intonation (or not).

Rick "noting that 'supposed to be in tune' and 'actually in tune' are not the same with most compensating instruments, in spite of the theory" Denney

Imperial wrote:

I find it easier to read euphonium music in treble clef, but sometimes the euphonium part is only written in bass clef and then I sometimes "cheat" by holding down the fourth valve and using F tuba fingerings.

I'm very suprised over the fact that this works. Can anyone explain to me how and why that works?

I'm also still interested in learning the f-tuba fingerings....anyone?

It works because by holding down the 4th valve on a euphonium you are adding enough tubing to make the total length the same as the main bugle on an F tuba.

F tuba fingerings are available in the "tips" section of this website.

Imperial wrote:

It works because by holding down the 4th valve on a euphonium you are adding enough tubing to make the total length the same as the main bugle on an F tuba.

Yes that I've already learned from this topic. What I meant was how bass-clef becomes an f-horn treble clef.

That's not what he said. He plays the bass clef parts by using F tuba fingerings. Holding the 4th valve down allows him to play a euphonium as an F tuba when reading bass clef. It doesn't become an f-horn treble clef.

Imperial wrote:ok now i'm even more lost. (please excuse my apparent lack of knowledge in this subject).

exactly how does he read the bass-clef (?) music when using the euph as an f-tuba?

My reading:

1. He knows how to play euphonium music written in the treble clef on a Bb euphonium.

2. He knows how to play F tuba with music written for it (i.e. in concert pitch in the bass clef).

3. He doesn't know how to play euphonium written in concert pitch in the bass clef, or at least he's not as comfortable with that as with 2 above.

Rick "who admits this is an unusual combination of skills" Denney