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I have owned a King CC rotary tuba for a number of years that was formerly owned by Indiana University and (according to a former member of the I.U. faculty brass quintet) used by Mr. Bell his last years at I.U. I am aware that Mr Bell had 2 or 3 of this particular model during the course of his career, the most notable difference being the direction the third slide was bent (the later models had the third slide bent UP rather than down - facilitating slide pulling as well as not collecting water). I know that Mr. Torchinsky still owns one (for all practical purposes identical to the one I own), and that Joe Novotny played this model during his tenure with the New York Philharmonic. I have somewhat half-heartedly used this instrument for some 20 years - I have the great fortune of owning several older York tubas and a wonderful "Kaiser" model BBb Hirsbrunner as well as several very good F tubas that have met all my Tuba playing needs. Over the years, I have had a number of tuba players come to my home to play my varied and diverse collection of some 25+ tubas (see Sean Greene's recent article in TubaNews.com) and the most notable "observation" is that (to my ear, at least, and frequently to others as well) the King ALWAYS sounds the best of the bunch, and this is no ordinary batch of old tubas - I've been buying and selling for 30+ years, and have KEPT the good ones. There was a time that I attempted (with relatively good results) to use the King as a "primary" instrument, but for some reason (perhaps Floyd Cooley's assessment that it is "a great New Year's Day Concert horn" or various former I.U. students declaring the horn "practically unplayable") I put it aside for some 10 or 15 years. Recently, I decided to dust this old gem off and seriously grapple with it's curious intonational idiosyncracies that (can) make this horn seem more like an adversary than anything else. I owe a great deal to Mr. Torchinsky in this regard - He was very encouraging when I last "battled" with it's difficulties, and gave me a great deal of good advice on how to turn it into the "trusted friend" that it has recently and finally become. It has always intrigued me that Bill Bell, who was undeniably one of the world's greatest tubaists, felt so strongly about this instrument; certainly there were better Conn, York, and Holton tubas during the thirties when the King was designed, OR???? Mr. Bell was certainly no fool, and he was undoubtedly aquainted with the various tubas available at that time. So why the King? To those that have never heard these tubas (the King) live, or rarer yet had the occasion to play one, it is somewhat difficult to describe it's unique and ultrafuncional tonal characteristics. The best I can describe it is as a big (though not megaBAT big) ultra clear sound that allows one to "cut" (Mr. Bell's desciptive term) through the orchestral texture when necessary, blend well with trombones on one hand, compliment the Contrabass section on the other, and still maintain a "true TUBA character". I find in particular when I play my York tubas, that their broad sound lacks the brightness that I always heard in Arnold Jacobs sound when he played HIS York. I always felt that I had to "put in" this element when playing the Yorks, while this element seems to be "built into" the King. To those who have never felt the action of well-adjusted "French Horn" style (single lever) string linkage rotary valves on a tuba, the lightness as well as the less than 1/2 inch valve stroke is truely remarkable - the size of the tuba ceases to be a detriment to technique, you can FLY with these valves. As a last testament, who can say that the tuba sound heard on the Philadelphia Brass Ensemble's "Glorious Sound of Brass", "The Antiphonal Music of Gabrielli", or perhaps most notably what is probably STILL the largest selling brass album ever made "A Festival of Carols in Brass" isn't a GREAT tuba sound; rivalling nearly any 5 or 6/4 BAT out there. The primary reason for this post is not so much to sing the praises of this great old tuba as to try to make contact with the small fraternity of players who may own one or still perform on it. I have been told that there were no more than 6 of this model made..... There is one in Mr. Torchinsky's possession, and Mr. Bell's original has found it's way (via Floyd Cooley) into the hands of San Francisco's "Bohemian-American Music Society" (at least at Floyd's reconing some time ago) I am also interested in communication with anyone who might have used the horn I own at Indiana University over the years. In particular Jerry Lackey (are you out there somewhere, Mr. Lackey?) who is pictured with it in the fall 2002 I.T.E.C journal; or Ivan Hammond, who Bob Rusk belieives is more or less responsible for it being built cir. 1960. Those who may play the "Bell Model" Meinl-Weston might be interested to know that their tuba is better intonationally than the King, but regrettably not really a truely faithful copy - The tapers of the two horns vary considerably, and the Meinl's bell is markedly different - the result of a mandrel possessed by Anton Meinl prior to the "Bell Model's" design, but nevertheless a suitable substitute. Some still use this "Bell Model" extensively, most notable perhaps being tuba artist Sam Pilafian, who is familiar to nearly everyone in the tuba community as former Empire Brass Quintet member and Professor of Tuba at the University of Arizona. In closing, though this model is long discontinued (mine made cir. 1960 is purportedly the last one made- it has the last set of King rotary valves built, according to King's records), it possesses virtues that don't exist in any other tubas made today - in particular it's remarkable valves; that lead me to believe there is LOTS of room for an improved valve design for tubas, overall. Anyone with any further interest in this instrument please feel free to contact me - regrettably it isn't for sale, at least not for another 25 years or so, but I would be happy to share any information I can give anyone who has any interest in it - particularly if someone is adventuresome enough to want to try to copy it or it's valve design. My Regards to all of you out there who may know or remember me, as well as those of you who have no reason to, Paul Haugan

A very interesting post. I agree with LVs assessment of today's brass playing vs. the playing style of the not so distant past. I think a big reason for the equipment that was used from the 30's through at least the 60's (and probably even later) had to do with recording and radio broadcasts. I had a discussion some years back with a NY player who had been on the the scene in those days. He told me that the slightly smaller bore instruments with their more compact sounds were better for the mikes/studios/equipment back then. Mr. Bell would have played in the acoustically dry NBC studio 8-H with the NBC Symphony in NYC. It would make sense that someone who is a highly perceptive musican would be completely sensitive to sound in general. This ability to cut while retaining the tuba sound was paramount to what he needed to do professionally. From your description of the horn, he would be able to do this without forcing the sound. Just a thought to add to this interesting thread.

Your poll answers are not mutually exclusive, so it's hard to answer, but I see no reason why such a tuba couldn't be used by a professional today. I would think that it doesn't have any more intonation quirks than most tubas. I really like the string linkage valves. I don't have a CC version of this, but I do have a 0.750" bore recording bell BBb version:



I tried a CC version with both bells once and seem to remember the CC version being somewhat smaller than this BBb. Maybe that was just because it had an upright bell that made it seem smaller.

I agree about the valve action on this. The stroke is shorter than on any other tuba I have played, and when properly adjusted they are very quiet.

I was seriously considering purchasing this one, admittedly never having played it, from Dillon's a few years ago. Instead I purchased a 2145 that has incredible intonation and was very free blowing but was missing just a little something in the way of character. I wonder who has this horn now?

Would this tuba work in today's orchestra?

Probably.

Would the t-bone players give you a bad/strange vibe?

Probably.

From my own experience, a lot of t-bone players are equipment goofy. Not as much as trumpet players, but more than tuba players. They hear York(copy)-this and Hirsbrunner-that and figure nothing else is admit-able in a orchestra section. Just like if a bass trombonist showed up with a Holton bass bone or a King 8B, he would be laughed out of the section, no matter how good he sounded.

Now beyond the name issue, there is a sound issue of sorts. The current 6/4-phones do sound different to the player, and to those in the immediate vicinity. I used to get tons of compliments when I played on my VMI-Neptune from section mates. When I played on my Mirafone 188, I got tons of compliments from the folks in the audience. I agree that the King sounds great on those old Philly recordings, but knowing how most jobs are today, getting along with section mates is just as important as getting on tape.

FWIW, MW still sells some MW37 CC's every once in a while. I have played a .689 bore King CC that the MW is based on and can say that the Kind was a definitely interesting horn. Great sound, good (loud) low register, and decent intonation. I'm guessing the MW is similar, but has to deal with the differences in construction, mainly heavier brass. I have never had the pleasure of playing a .750 bore King rotary CC, but I am sure that they were great horns at the time.

However, I seriously doubt that the design will be revived. It simply doesn't have the right name stamped on the bell.

I didn't know how to vote on this. I'd like to have one of the old King BBb beasts just 'cause they are so cool looking. But my preference would be for one of the originals. I don't imagine a new one would be of the same build quality and would probably cost a bundle.

I got a kick out of the metal clarinet comment though. Those things have one of the most gloriously anoying sounds! not as bad as a suona, but.....

Matthew Gilchrest wrote:They hear York(copy)-this and Hirsbrunner-that and figure nothing else is admit-able in a orchestra section.

I don't think it's always this way. Al Baer is one of the few in a major orchestra using a Gronitz and/or Miraphone 1291 and I'm sure his section mates don't mind. A lot of younger players in orchestras are using the PT-6. If you show up and play better than anybody else at the audition, at the end of the day the trombone section (or anybody else for that matter) won't care what brand you play.

At least that's the way it should be I think.

I owned a King CC tuba that I bought years ago from Ivan Hammond of Bolling Green University. It was silver palted with a gold-wash inner bell. The bell was 22" in diameter. This one had the downward third valve tubing. The low register was stuffy. I sold it to student of Don Harry at Juilliard in the early 1980's. It had a good sound in the middle register but the intonation, low register and high register were brutal.

Don said that once his student bought it, Don modified the leadpipe to make the mouthpiece receiver a venturi like a French horn. Don said this opened the tuba greatly. Don also cut the bell flare down to 19" from its original 22". He said that that made the high register better.

I, of late, due to age and a physical disability, appreciate .689" bore tubas more and would like to have my old King back. I have been searching here on Tubenet for one for sale, but with no success.

Why the King? The sound was superb. I find the rotary valves more ergonically correct for my hand. King pistons, the .689" game on town today, cause me severe pain and discomfort in the right hand. I have tried the Bill Bell Model Meinl Westons but have not yet found one that was great.

I have talked to Mr. Torchinsky at length about the King. I asked him, if he were still playing today with the great variety of tubas available, would he still play a King. His answer was yes providing it was his King. He said that many of the others that he tried had the characteristics that I described in my King. Mr. Torchinsky sold his King to a former student.

The King that was available from Dillon's several years ago was taken off of the market and is, according to Matt Walter, still owned and played by the gentleman who had briefly offered it for sale. I tried the tuba and found quite good despite a few intonation quirks.

I am the former owner of Brass Arts Unlimited in Baltimore, Maryland. I did very esoteric repairs and modifications to instruments over the years. Since I sold the place, I have no where to work at present. Once I can get a suitable work area and money to finance the project, my pet project is to cut an old model King 2141 BBb tuba to a CC and add a set of Meinl Weston rotary valves and re-invent the wheel.

anonymous4 wrote: I don't think it's always this way. Al Baer is one of the few in a major orchestra using a Gronitz and/or Miraphone 1291 and I'm sure his section mates don't mind.

You're right. But, Mr. Baer did play a Hirsbrunner HB-6 before the Gronitz. Miraphone is a known name, and the 1291 is for the light stuff (more than likely) in the NYPO.

anonymous4 wrote: A lot of younger players in orchestras are using the PT-6.

The PT-6 is very popular. Mainly due to the (Custom Music propaganda based description) idea that it is a York-style horn.

anonymous4 wrote: If you show up and play better than anybody else at the audition, at the end of the day the trombone section (or anybody else for that matter) won't care what brand you play.

At least that's the way it should be I think.

Right again. However most tuba players have already followed advice from various sources and have bought "Brand X" to play in those auditions because that is what "Mr. X Tuba Player" uses in the Upper Buttcrack Symphony Orchestra.

As tuba design slowly evolves, the choice of horn in orchestra uses will evolve also. In fact, I'm almost willing to bet that in the next generation or so, a lot of players will be using smaller horns due to various reasons.

Back to topic. If the King .750 or .689 bore rotary CC were made today, it would probably still suffer from "Image" problems (name seen in too many band rooms), and would possibly lack the finish quality that many CC players are looking for when spending lots of money on a tuba. However, having them in the mix would be very interesting in the 4/4 CC tuba realm.

isn't the Gronitz Mr. Baer plays a York-inspired instrument itself?

bloke wrote:

If the King .750 or .689 bore rotary CC were made today...

Any opinions of playing characteristics aside, the workmanship of pre-UMI King instruments (White / Seeburg eras) in general - including tubas - stacks up quite favorably against most all other pre-1980's American and European instruments...

...and I believe the King rotary CC tuba would qualify as a pre-1980's instrument.

This was kinda' my point. If UMI were to produce this horn today, they might have a tough time against Mirafone, MW, et al in the "average" brand CC tuba category in terms of fit and finish. The King BBb tubas today are of good design, but there have been many examples of poor quality control. I believe this would be (totally hypothetical) the biggest issue with a reincarnation of this model.

I would agree that the vintage of Kings of which you speak stack up well against similar intstruments of the times. In fact, I am always impressed by how sturdy the King tubas seem to be while not having the bulk of the Conn tubas of the same era.

you'll notice the carefully chosen "york inspired" in my question.which to me means a big fat bell with big fat bows,4 .750 front pistons /1 rotor,and a somewhat "pillowy" sound.

hbcrandy wrote: I am the former owner of Brass Arts Unlimited in Baltimore, Maryland. I did very esoteric repairs and modifications to instruments over the years. Since I sold the place, I have no where to work at present. Once I can get a suitable work area and money to finance the project, my pet project is to cut an old model King 2141 BBb tuba to a CC and add a set of Meinl Weston rotary valves and re-invent the wheel.

I think I bought a couple of french horn flippers from you some years ago, after I bought my horn and it had one of your flippers on it. Nice work, much better than those duck foot things a lot of people use.

MA

Hello,
What are the specs. on this instrument?
Is it a similar style of sound to the old Meinl Weston
CC's which William Bell/Novotny used?
Kathott

As similar as the King CC and the "Bell Model" are, it is actually somewhat puzzling as to why two such similar horns might play so differently. They both have the same bore size (@ .687 in.) and although they have a similar (though not exact) taper and bell size, I find the King to be a far superior instrument (dispite the fact that the M-W is arguably a good instrument). I speak from experience; as I owned a Bell Model MW for a number of years, and had many occasions to compare the two in a great variety of playing situations. It is my belief that the superiority of the King could well be the result of manufacturing techniques (spun bell & handmade parts vs. hydraulically made parts) as well as materials, "virgin" brass vs. modern (most likley recycled) brass. Anyone familiar with older instruments can attest to the difference in response between older brass and the brass currently used by [most] manufacturers today. Virgin brass is still available today, but the last time I checked prices (@ 10 years ago) the price of a 4x8 ft. sheet of "virgin" brass was some 5 times more expensive than regular (recycled) sheet brass. There are some "impurities" (i.e. lead, tin, and other metals inherent in the recycling process) and they tend to make modern brass somewhat more brittle than the brass used in the past to make musical instruments. In addition, MY particular MW Bell model didn't have the detachable bell collar and had a heavy coat of epoxy laquer, whereas my King has the collar as well as a heavy double silver plate that I had put on the horn that (seems to) make it play heavier as well as more "pliable" to any nuance that I might wish to create. I hope this gives some insight and/or answers some of the questions regarding the difference between these two tubas. -Haugan p.s. To my knowledge, neither Bell, Novotny, or Torchinsky ever performed much on the M-W "Bell Model" outside of Meinl-Weston advertising; all three preferred their OWN King tubas.

Actually, I beg to differ. It is VERY apparent that Mr. Novotny was using a Meinl on the later (1965 forward) Young Peoples Concerts. The give away is that the valves don't wrap around like the close-ups of him playing the King. This is very evident in their performance of Sensemaya. Just clarifying. Joe Novotny could probably make a garden hose sound good.

Chuck

With all the discussion, what would one of these originals in good playing condition be worth?[/img]

My apologies, Chuck. Evidently Novotny DID use the Bell Model on certain occasions. My only personal contact with Mr. Novotny was to take a "lesson" with him when the NYP came through Madison in 1972 (or 3?). I called him up in his hotel room to ask if he would be willing to give a lesson, and rather than give an actual lesson he took me out for breakfast the morning after the NYP concert in Madison. For whatever reason, he was [back to?] playing the King at that time. The "breakfast session" was great. I was able to do an extensive "interview" with him on a myriad of topics, not unlike the 1976 interview I did with Arnold Jacobs for the Winter 1977 T.U.B.A. journal. He gave me all kinds of valuable information and was a super-nice guy, patiently and caringly giving me answers to all the questions a (somewhat brazen) 17 year old kid might venture to ask. I spent 2 hours with him, and got a LOT of information out of him - much like the many lessons I was yet to have with Arnold Jacobs. I often wonder what it would have been like to be one of his students. I think his playing abilities were (and are) largely overlooked and unappreciated due to his modest and unassuming nature - in his kindness he seemed to be devoid of any ego whatsoever. As to his playing abilities, a Novotny student told me of going to his apartment in NYC for a lesson and hearing Novotny flawlessly "fly through" Wilder's "Effie chases a monkey" through the apt. door only to enter the apartment and have Novotny modestly state that he'de been "having a look" at this new Wilder solo. Arnold was a kind and caring man, but I never got the feeling that I wasn't in the presence of royalty when I was around him; although that was undoubtedly more my fault than his - it was hard to spend time around him or hear him play without some sense of wonder at his abilities and/or the depth of his knowledge. As to the post on the King's worth, any good antique dealer can tell you that "anything with any kind of nostalgic or historic value is worth whatever you can get for it". Mr. Torchinsky had his insured for $11,000.oo when I last spoke to him; I don't know what he sold it for (to a former student?) although knowing Mr. T's generosity it wasn't THAT much. I consider mine more-or-less irreplacable due to it's unique qualities, but in it's own (though admittedly different) way I would venture to say it is of comparable value to the older Yorks - with the exception perhaps of the two owned by the Chicago Symphony. Before closing this post out, I would like to encourage anyone who had contact with Mr. Novotny as a student, collegue, or just in passing to post a few words about what seemed to me to be a truely unique indivdual - I am sure the TubeNet community would be interested in hearing more about the man who had the distinction of following Bill Bell in the NYP. I can sort of kick the story off - A very dear friend of mine's grandfather, John Sovinec, conducted the "Chicago Boy's Club Band" for some 60 years. When a guest at his home some 20 years ago, he informed me (after the tragic news that he had sold "all those old Yorks and Conns" that the CBCB had used for @ $500.oo each the previous year) that he had "started out" "little Joey Novotny" on tuba. Small world. -Haugan