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UF_pedal_tones wrote:The trick is to just hold it whatever was is the most comfortable, making sure you're not going to damage the horn.

Drawbacks:
-takes much more body control to march with a contra compared w/ a sousie
-can be tiring on the arms (constant picking up and putting down)

That's only 'cuz you was a punk!! ...maestro UF...

HA HA!

(teasing of course...this Mr UF knows what he is talking about...he was great)

Once you play a Contra, you wont ever want to go back to Sousa!



...hey UF, drop me a line sometime!

I have marched contra in a senior drum and bugle corps for the last couple of years after being a sousphone man for 30 years. The hard part to get used to is the horns up and down. As a sousaphone player we never had to worry about that much, so we have bad habits to over come. Each brand of horn has different problems to deal with. With G bugles the King K-90 is easy to hold on to and balance on your shoulder. The Kanstul G contra is a little awkward as far as your left hand position to keep the horn balanced. The DEG is a real problem if you have one of the leadpipes with the large diameter bend in it. The horn wants to fall off you shoulder when you finally get the mouthpiece aligned to your lips. If I had one I would have it re-bent. Now as far as the Bb contras, I have only test played them and haven't had time to really feel them out for comfort while marching, but almost any horn will become easy to control once you become familiar with it. As far as playing characteristics, I like the Yamaha Bb contra the best. Very centered sound and nicely in tune.


Bb Contras from left to right: Yamaha - DEG - Kanstul

Sorry, they didn't have the new King contra at the NAMM Show last February.

Once you play a Contra, you wont ever want to go back to Sousa!

Could those of you who have posted enthusiastically about contras please explain what you find to be the advantages of contras over sousaphones?

well all i could think of is uniformity of the look of the band during visuals but if your band has woodwinds, then I don't think it would look good. I prefer sousaphones. Much less work =)

The ONLY advantage is visual. Contras blend better with the other bell front instrument during visual movements. But no contra I have tried sounds better, plays nicer or projects better than my old 1927 Conn 38K sousaphone.

Well, I really wanted to go get breakfast before heading off to work...

TECHNIQUE, TECHNIQUE, TECHNIQUE.... Strength really doesn't count for much when handling these things. I've seen some big boys have problems before they were thoroughly schooled in proper technique. Conversely, I've seen smaller and less-muscled players do very well.

If you're marching in any direction besides straight ahead, contra is a lot easier to manage. No matter how good your technique is, a sousaphone still bangs against your lower body when you're going sideways -- that just plain sucks. Putting the entire instrument above shoulder level frees up the lower body completely, and they won't interfere with each other.

Carrying flipfolders of music sucks, though. Memorize everything. It can be done -- I have over two hours' worth of performance material in my head.

I've also preferred having my arms up and away from my body; I feel closed-in when marching sousaphone.

Picking the horn up from the ground is as simple as 1-2-3:
1. Grab the outer branch, top bow, whatever you want to call it, and lift with your right hand.
2. Put your left hand on the pipes where you normally carry the horn.
3. Put your right hand at the valves.
That's standard for almost every contra-style marching tuba. The older Yamaha 201M version is a little different, but you can figure it out.

When you carry them down at your side (we call it "trail"), hold onto the big or well-braced pipes.

The most important thing for you to do when you get the horns is to spend a lot of quality time with marching fundamentals. Do balance exercises, upper-body turns, rotations while moving... anything to help reinforce the separation of your upper and lower body.

If you can get a hold of some DCI videos, especially late 80's-early 90's (because that's when they still did field-level camera angles of the horns), you'll be able to spot the good contra lines pretty easily. Copy what they do.

I've got some pictures and a couple vid clips, too.

I think that "shoulder tubas" are a bad idea for most schools. DCI is another story, but most youths, even high schoolers, don't have the strength that it takes to hold them properly. If kept on the shoulder one arm is up in the air, which makes blood flow difficult and increases arm and shoulder fatigue. With sousaphones your arms are down in a more natural position.

These horns are also much more likely to be trashed in a shorter period of time. Although sousaphones do get abused, they are much less likely to just fall onto the ground from slipping out of one's hands.

I tried one once in college, and swore never to play one again. I would rather march with my Conn 40K, which weighs a ton, than one of those things.

My @ 1935 Conn/Cavalier with a 24 inch bell (a 14k before they called them 14k) has the full .734 bore and as such sounds much better than any of the so-called marching tubas. It sounds so well, in fact, that it is more tuba-esque indoors than a lot of newer small bore or thin bell tubas, and does not weigh that much because it has the smaller throat.

If you must march with a tuba, do it the way the British do it with their Bessons: held in front with a proper padded adjustible double shoulder sling so that you maintain proper posture and can keep a grab on the thing if something untoward happens.

Lew wrote:I think that "shoulder tubas" are a bad idea for most schools. DCI is another story, but most youths, even high schoolers, don't have the strength that it takes to hold them properly.

To an extent (actually, to quite a large extent), that's true. It does depend on the kids involved, but at that age (more of a problem in junior high and with HS freshmen), some players are still getting through puberty and haven't quite developed enough physically.

Again, though, I'll emphasize the point that success in managing the horn comes from technique more than strength. I've been around big football player-sized kids who have a hell of a time with them, and I was pretty scrawny myself when I started.

If the player's in reasonably decent shape, he/she will be able to carry the horn.

Additionally -- if you don't have someone involved with the band who marched contra/marching tuba before, seek outside help to get yourselves started. Having a marching tech who knows the ins & outs of contras, and whose job is to focus only on your section's execution, counts for quite a lot.

I tried one once in college, and swore never to play one again.

I've been marching contra for seventeen years so far (only been paid for it over the last five); I know what I'm talking about.

Lew wrote:I would rather march with my Conn 40K, which weighs a ton, than one of those things.

Happened to put mine on the scale a couple days ago -- 30 lbs of raw brass. Last marched it a couple years ago, luckily not a long distance. It isn't too bad if your back's in good shape. Worst thing I remember is running into street signs while playing (kind of an unusual band - on the bright side, "marching" just means "walking" for us.)

I wonder if a helicon would be a better way for someone who isn't already committed to one or the other. Of course my little F helicon is a dream to carry, but even its big modern brother the Cerveny BBb is relatively light for its size, supposed to be comfortable, and looks and maybe sounds more like a conventional tuba.

I don't know how the balance is on the BBb. The F is oval, so there's no balance issue, it just sets where it's supposed to.

cc_tuba_guy wrote:(And only bugles keyed in GG are considered contras as in "CONTRAbass bugle." Ones keyed in BBb are shoulder tubas or convertible tubas.)

Hmm...

In tuba terms, BBb horns are called "contrabass tubas" versus the F and Eb "bass tubas".

So, maybe the term "contra" still applies, and thanks to its prior usage describing the lowest, bazooka-styled voice of the bugle choir, it generally applies to this style of marching tuba, whether in BBb or GG.

Is there a place (or an off season drum corps) that has more than one kind of these over-the-shoulder tubas? I'm the brass line instructor for a couple of competitive marching bands in the area, and the band directors sometimes ask about sousaphones vs. contras.

In high school, we marched the 4/4 3-valve (right shoulder) Kings which were not balanced real well, but didn't take much air (and were easy to overblow). However, in the last 5 or six years, I have marched sousaphone. They are easy to carry, but I have never found one that played well in tune and didn't sound 'blatty'. I would prefer a more direct, centered sound, but there are no contras where I am in order to try out.

What are the different opinions from the guys who have marched contra in high school or DCI? Would it be possible to try out a couple different models in the midwest? Of course cost is an issue with all public school programs, and the directors (which are good friends of mine) were thinking of getting perhaps (if in their budgets) one a year for the next two or three years. Is there a place that sells used contras somewhere?

jon112780 wrote:What are the different opinions from the guys who have marched contra in high school or DCI?

Look for a revised King BBb contra soon -- Phantom Regiment is reportedly working on new versions of their contras & euphoniums.

Right now, the current BBb contras (most of which are new designs within the past 3 or 4 years) are really nice-playing horns; the corps using each have been getting quite good sounds out of them all. See if you can get to Illinois and chat up the Cavaliers and Phantom guys at a camp to see what they think.

jon112780 wrote:Is there a place (or an off season drum corps) that has more than one kind of these over-the-shoulder tubas? I'm the brass line instructor for a couple of competitive marching bands in the area, and the band directors sometimes ask about sousaphones vs. contras.

In high school, we marched the 4/4 3-valve (right shoulder) Kings which were not balanced real well, but didn't take much air (and were easy to overblow). However, in the last 5 or six years, I have marched sousaphone. They are easy to carry, but I have never found one that played well in tune and didn't sound 'blatty'. I would prefer a more direct, centered sound, but there are no contras where I am in order to try out.

What are the different opinions from the guys who have marched contra in high school or DCI? Would it be possible to try out a couple different models in the midwest? Of course cost is an issue with all public school programs, and the directors (which are good friends of mine) were thinking of getting perhaps (if in their budgets) one a year for the next two or three years. Is there a place that sells used contras somewhere?

I dunno if this will help, but there's a pretty big DCI show over in Kalamazoo at Western Michigan University every summer, you might have a chance to at least talk to some of the guys marching there.

i marched G die nasties for two years for a drum corps and i just gotta say make sure your horn snaps are as fast as everyone else actually make them fast. and make sure you keep your arms in theright possition all the time and don't slouch cause it will kill your back. oh and if you can't see out of the left side of your horn know your sets very very well almost flawless it's the only way. that or learn to look through the brass that is also another easy way to look at it. but none the less just make sure you have horn facings right and can pop that thing up faster than the trumpets (always impresses the instructor) but if you have a horn that isn't to sturdy around where you put it on your shoulder be careful when you snap it. the die nasties that i marched we could throw them up on our shoulders as hard as we humanly could and our shoulder would give before the horn. anywho best of luck with the contra it's fun but alot more responsibility than sousaphone or so i think.

contra_pyro wrote:

josh wagner wrote: the die nasties that i marched we could throw them up on our shoulders as hard as we humanly could and our shoulder would give before the horn.

yeah, that's why i loved the dynasty 5/4 BBb horns, we had a guy get mad and punch it, and in barely dented, however with the new kings, although they sound better, we would dent the bells snapping them up, and i actually broke 2 braces on horn snaps.

I have a friend that bought a very nice 188 CC and, while attempting to learn C fingerings in something like the first week, punched the bottom bow and still has four nice little dents right in a row.

We're tuba players. Chill.

Charlie Goodman wrote:We're tuba players. Chill.

This is chill.

Tom Holtz wrote:This is chill.

Sweet...

Apart from the leadpipe being on the wrong side (AT-4's do fire from the right shoulder, though) and the horn being about half the actual size, I would've thought that it really was a converted K-90.

I liked the horns I marched were nice. The last year I play ona 5/4 BBb DyNASTY, which is a wilson tuba. All the parts were made int he willson plant in the swiss.

They are tough horns to march. Just take care of your body and the horn. You will get such a sweet sound on the horn you get (as long as they arent convertables).

PM if you have any other questions.

Mark