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Upon researching this subject in the Archives, I found the Korg CA-20 was very popular - and good portable unit. Has anything come out recently that surpasses the Korg? A built-in metronome would be a nice feature.

Korg TM-40 combined tuner & metronome (it's new)

http://www.korg.com/gear/info.asp?a_pro ... egory_id=5

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=h ... id/210533/

I've had one for about a month, I highly recommend it!

Korg also has one of those clip on tuners that works great. AW-1 I believe is the model number.

I know you don't want to hear it, but the Korg OT-12 is truly great. Why don't you want to hear it? Because it costs $88.99 on Musician's Friend and does not have a metronome . It has a lot of exotic tunings for period instruments, etc. So why do you need it? It's range of detection is A0-C8 and it has a real VU meter. It also has a neat Sound Back mode which allows you to hear the tone while you tune to it. Good ear training for matching that clarinet or oboe giving the pitch. The reference tones have a range of C2-C7. It accepts a clip on mic and I find that the Korg clip on is a good choice there as well. I have better results clipping it on my lead pipe than on my bell. There is other information in the forum about this option and the usual variety of opinions about it.

I use the Korg CA-30. Picks up tuba just fine even in a room of other people playing at the same time.

The Korg TM40 is definietly a great value - $26.00 for a tuner/metronome. However if you are looking for a truly great tuner/metronome packagae and the $$ isnt much of an issue the Seiko SMP-20 (or the lower model SMP-10) are really great. I like it becase of its analog meter which i find easier to read that a digital display. FWIW

I have a fender brand tuner/metronome. I find that I would rather have seperate units because I want to use both while doing long tones.

For tuners I have to recommend a BOSS Dr. Beat. Newest one is the DB-90. That little box can put out a lot of sound. Okay, so it's not exactly a little box, and it is pricey, but the sound it puts out can't be beat.

In my experience, tuning with a drone and adjusting with your ears sure beats the heck out of watching the little dancing needle. And when you're in a room by yourself, a tuning drone really is the next best thing to having another person there with you. The only major downside to the DB is that you can only use one function at a time (metronome/tuner).

The DB just inhales batteries, so if you buy a DB, the adapter is a must! Don't leave home without it. In fact I've got it sitting here. (Part# PSA-120T if you're curious)

If I need a drone and the tempo going at the same time, I have the little Korg MA-30 metronome. It's only loud enough if you turn up the volume and set it to accent every beat, but it does the job.

-William

These things are my favorite...

My CA-30 picks up tuba easily with other instruments playing and tunes a 6-string bass's bottom string easily, even when tuning down to A or lower. I needed a metronome and a second tuner, so I bought a TM-40. With other people playing, it doesn't want to focus on the tuba but prefers midrange pitches. It's very quick and accurate when I'm the only one playing. Good metronome.

schlepporello wrote: The problem is that our minister of music keeps telling me that I'm playing to sharp ...
My church has the piano tuned regularly...

One possible problem could be "stretch tuning". Many pianos are stretch tuned. The upper octaves are progressively sharper, and the lower octaves are progressively flatter. Even many of the better electric keyboards use this on their piano sounds. So, if your church's piano tuner has an overly aggressive stretch curve (is he licensed???), you could be in fact playing the correct pitch (or at least reasonably close) and still be noticeably sharper that the intentionally flat tuned lower octaves of the piano!
On the chart below, the most aggressive curve goes as much as 30 cents flat on the bottom of the keyboard!
I ran into this problem once myself, when I couldn't match an electric keyboard playing with our band on tour. The keyboardist didnt't believe me, so when we put a tuner to it he saw how flat it got while still being in tune in the middle. Switching to a synth patch (think vintage DX7 but less cheesey) was our quick fix - the pitch stayed consistent from top to bottom; only the piano patches were stretched.

schlepporello wrote:I don't know if our tuner's licensed or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't.

Just an inside joke, Schlepp, don't take it to heart. Seriously, though, the next time you have your Korg tuner there put it on the piano. After hitting a few notes in the middle to get a "baseline" work your way down and see how the tuba range notes sit. If your minister of music gives you a hard time, print out the previous post to show him that you are not yet crazy (despite your best intentions.)
I wish you the best in your endeavors; the highest calling for a musician is playing for the Lord.

MartyNeilan wrote:

schlepporello wrote: The problem is that our minister of music keeps telling me that I'm playing to sharp ...
My church has the piano tuned regularly...

One possible problem could be "stretch tuning". Many pianos are stretch tuned. The upper octaves are progressively sharper, and the lower octaves are progressively flatter. Even many of the better electric keyboards use this on their piano sounds. So, if your church's piano tuner has an overly aggressive stretch curve (is he licensed???), you could be in fact playing the correct pitch (or at least reasonably close) and still be noticeably sharper that the intentionally flat tuned lower octaves of the piano!
On the chart below, the most aggressive curve goes as much as 30 cents flat on the bottom of the keyboard!
I ran into this problem once myself, when I couldn't match an electric keyboard playing with our band on tour. The keyboardist didnt't believe me, so when we put a tuner to it he saw how flat it got while still being in tune in the middle. Switching to a synth patch (think vintage DX7 but less cheesey) was our quick fix - the pitch stayed consistent from top to bottom; only the piano patches were stretched.

I have never heard of this. why would they do that?

ken k

It would take a very thick treatise on psychoacoustics to explain all the reasons why. The bottom line is that for some reason, the ear hears octaves differently than the true pitches, and wants a sharper tone on top to be sensed as the octave rather than the actual mathematically double the frequency. To some people with no musical training, a pitch up to 1 1/2 times the true octave is what is perceived as "twice as high," rather than the true octave.

As far as tuners go, I have a boss tu-12H (I think thats the model) which works very well for both bass and tuba applications. Its a little big, but it has a real meter with a needle which was a big selling point for it in my book.

I have used sabine tuners and I can't say I cared for them at all. The one I had was absolutely the worst tuner I have ever seen or used. That may have had to do with the fact that it was cheap and crappy though.

Stretch tuning for pianos:

Although some people do not perceive octaves accurately, that is not the main reason ocatves are stretched on pianos. The principal reason is that the overtones from a struck piano string are sharp compared to the harmonic series. The overtones are sharpest when a note is struck loudly, and as the note decays, the overtones gradually come down to agree with the harmonic series.

This leaves a quandry for piano tuners. If the piano is tuned with all of its notes exactly in conformance with equal temperament, and octaves in an exact 2:1 frequency ratio, octaves will sound flat, as the fundamental frequencies of octaves will clash with the overtones. The solution is a compromise tuning. With octaves stretched a bit, there will be less clash between overtones and octaves.

The trouble arises when the piano is used with other instruments. Most orchestral instruments (and pipe organs) have most of their overtones in decent agreement with the harmonic series.

The best thing to do is to find a piano tuner who knows the difference between tuning a piano as a solo instrument, and tuning a piano to be used with other instruments. You need a different tuning compromise, with at least a lot less stretching of octaves. Indeed, I have encountered pianos that can sound good when no octave stretching is done.

I hope you can arouse interest in the topic of tunings and temperaments. It is a wonderful (but alas rare) pleasure to listen to musicians who take tuning seriously.

Cheers,
Allen

Yes, I had forgotten about that as well - when the string vibrates over the bridge, the actual speaking length of the top of the string is different for the fundamental than for the overtones, which "see" a slightly shorter string length at the innermost point of the bridge. Shorter = higher pitch. It's a similar reason guitars have offset bridges to intonate the strings, to account for the string stretch as the string gets larger in diameter. The rough rule of thumb for setting up a guitar before fine tuning is to back the bridge off the amount of the string thickness, or slightly more if the action is medium to high.

Allen wrote:The best thing to do is to find a piano tuner who knows the difference between tuning a piano as a solo instrument, and tuning a piano to be used with other instruments. You need a different tuning compromise, with at least a lot less stretching of octaves.

BINGO!
Great advice, Allen!