Can't they just learn to play?

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Leland
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Post by Leland »

ThomasDodd wrote:That's OK. I think you ended up with a better group anyway.
Providence? Divine intervention?
Well, one of 'em is a town... ;)

Eh, either way -- my sister tells me that I'm more of a drum corps guy anyway. Now to just work on reining in the talent that we've got.
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Tubadork
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Post by Tubadork »

So which came first the chicken or the egg?
I don't know of any major symphony tuba players who now play on BBb (although some will do it sometimes) or won their job on BBb.
Is that because:
1. They were forced to switch?
2. Is the sound of a CC tuba better suited for orchestra?
3. Coincidence?
4. It's just a passing fad?
Yes there have been people in the past who have been very succesfull using BBb, but it does not seem to be the trend today. I've played some real nice BBb tubas, but none that compare to say a MW2000, PT6, 2155, Wilson 5/4 etc... I've also heard some players on BBb that sound really great and they souldn't change their equipment. In grad school the whole studio came to the school with CC's (not because the teacher forced us) because that seems to be the industry standard.
The debate rages on,
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Leland
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Post by Leland »

Tubadork wrote:So which came first the chicken or the egg?
I don't know of any major symphony tuba players who now play on BBb
Change that to "major US symphony.."; overseas, it's a different story.
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college and CC

Post by rascaljim »

Seems to me that freshman year of college is a good time to start learning the new set of fingerings. Being able to play horns in different keys (I think we all can agree) is valuable in being a successful professional. Now, I realize that not everyone on this board is aspiring to that, but if you are, there really shouldn't complain too much about having to leave your comfort zone of BBb.

Either way, you're still going to have to learn bass tuba fingerings at some point, and I know my transition from BBb to CC was significantly more difficult than when I added an F to my arsinel.

Besides, the more keys of tubas we are able to play, the more versitle we become. I have found playing situations where a BBb would have been nice, but for the most part I find a lot of my playing (amature, colligate, and gigging) lines up better with my C or my F.

Besides, playing in E major is a big pain in the A** on BBb.

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Re: college and CC

Post by Chuck(G) »

rascaljim wrote:Besides, playing in E major is a big pain in the A** on BBb.
How so?

Two octave E Major scale on BBb and CC (assuming "textbook" fingerings):

E .... 24.... 234
F#....23..... 24
G#.....1..... 23
A........2 .....12
B.......24.......2
C#.....23......24
D#.......1......23
E.........2......12
F#......23.......2
G#........1......23
A...........2..... 12
B..........12....... 2
C#......... 2......12
D#..........1........2
E............ 2....... 0

Number of valves depressed to play scale on BBb=21
Number of valves depressed to play scale on CC=25.
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Post by gwwilk »

So how easy is it to play in Db or C# on the CC?

As usual you are faced with tradeoffs and compromises. B is the toughest key for me to play on BBb's, but I'm getting better at it. I don't play CC, but I think Db on CC is the B on BBb equivalent. Master one set of fingerings, and you've mastered the other.

You need to know what you pieces you are going to perform in order to select the best tool for you in that setting. It pains me to see such prescriptive opinions set forth to be followed by all.

That said, I would agree that anyone with professional aspirations should acquire proficiency on at least two differently keyed tubas. Amateurs like me have more leeway: we can always just say 'no', even while realizing that exercising that option may severely limit future such opportunities.

My $.02 and worth less than that on the open market.

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Post by imperialbari »

I certainly like Chuck(G)'s posting!

It is in full concordance with a posting of mine on the old TubeNet. In short:

Playing on the open bugle is considered offering the optimum in sound and intonation.

If valves should be added, then as few as possible, as they in a tuba context introduce a less desirable cylindrical component to the ideally conical bore profile.

In the lower octaves aside from 4 notes , 2*C and 2*B natural, the BBb tuba adds less valve tubing to any note, than does the CC tuba. (end of squeezed quote).

My suspicion on the popularity of the CC tuba is, that its brighter sound is considered a better match for the orchestral trombone section.

The profound mismatch of considering the trombones and the tuba forming a common section partially is based on the Viennese tradition as represented in Brahms' symphonies.

The original Viennese F tubas was a bright instrument quite close to the original Wieprecht tiny-o-phone.

When I have heard a Yorkburner played through a Conn Helleberg by a player in high esteem, world-wide, I haven't liked it. The similarity to a contrabass bone has been a bit too striking.

In my ears the tuba can offer better service to any ensemble type, if it concentrates on its foundation providing capabilities.

Playing the large and dark BBb basses is nothing less of a challenge than steering one of the CC speedboats.

Combining the heaviness of the BBb's with elegance and clean execution of musical lines takes some players.

Klaus
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Post by manatee »

This has been going on for umpteen years and I always wonder, if the CC is "better" and/or the tuba of choice, why isn't it THE tuba which is taught and bought from elementary school on?
Secondly, the community band I am in, the director has a degree in tuba form a major west coast school. I asked him if he could have played BBb there, and he told me in theory he could have, but the reality is that he would have been ousted for not being a serious student. The prevailing thought being, we train tuba players to be tuba players in US symphony orchestras, and they play CCs.
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Re: college and CC

Post by CJ Krause »

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Leland
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Post by Leland »

manatee wrote: The prevailing thought being, we train tuba players to be tuba players in US symphony orchestras, and they play CCs.
Of course, that thought is rather silly when we notice that we can each name maybe 20 tuba-playing friends for every symphony tubist that we know personally.

That brings up an even uglier perception -- that The Symphony is at the top of the world, while everything else is crap.
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Post by CJ Krause »

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Post by bigboymusic »

You know Charlie, I wish you would just stop beating around the bush and call it like you see it......

:P
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Let's Review!

Post by Alex Reeder »

For this discussion, I feel compelled to repeat an earlier post (May 24) on this subject, from Gorilla Tuba. I think it is the most knowledgable, fair, and logical answer to this question that I have heard yet:
I recommend CC tubas to my tuba majors. I do not blanketly tell them that they can't succeed on BBb, but I certainly do not know of any compelling reason not to buy a CC. Some of the reasons are as follows:
1. Unfortunately, you often must play CC to be taken seriously by the better grad schools.
2. Being two feet shorter, a CC is theoretically going to be more responsive than a similar model in BBb. My experience also shows that CC tubas seem to have more clarity in their sound.
3. Yes, you should be comfortable in all keys. However, orchestral licks in mega-sharp keys really are easier on CC.
4. Since 99% of professional tubists in the US use CC, you gotta believe that there is something there.
5. There just aren't that many truly professional level BBb tubas out there, although this is changing.

For someone whose aspirations are to play in community bands (even good ones) and put together a quintet for pay gigs such as weddings, there is no reason to to switch to CC. Even for most music education majors, the benefits of a CC are minimal at best. But for a performance major, the benefits, though minimal, are worth the time investment.

You can effectively counter that BBb tubas are just as good. Perhaps switching to CC is just about ego. None-the-less, when a tubist switches to CC, he or she is making a huge commitment to the study of the instrument. The time involved in getting comfortable in CC and the need to revisit the basics may account more for any musical growth than does the key of the instrument. It is when a student purchases their own CC tuba that I see a players jump to the next level.

To conclude this long-winded post, it is very possible that most of the advantages of a CC tuba are merely perception. However, perceptions do matter.
The main point that I found here is that there are some real differences between C and Bb, but mainly it is mental. In switching between any two keys of tuba, you are forced to re-learn many things. I recently switched to C tuba, and I think I am able to kind of start again learning certain things the right way now that I have several years of training under my belt.

The process of switching from BBb to CC, not simply playing one or the other, allows you to leave any bad habits from learning BBb behind and start fresh with new, good habits on a CC. This switch is especially beneficial around the college years because you are suddenly with a highly qualified teacher who can guide you the right way. The switch (and this is probably going a bit too far on the side of dramatic BS) is like a rebirth.
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Post by CJ Krause »

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Leland
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Re: Let's Review!

Post by Leland »

Alex Reeder wrote:The process of switching from BBb to CC, not simply playing one or the other, allows you to leave any bad habits from learning BBb behind and start fresh with new, good habits on a CC.
Why not, then, just work on abandoning the bad habits and learning good ones?

I'm a little different, though. I've seen too many perceptions turn out to be false, so I try to avoid letting perceptions cloud my judgment.
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Placebo

Post by Alex Reeder »

I guess what he was trying to say is not that perceptions get in the way of reality but that your perceptions about C tuba drive you to be better? Because you thimk you must sound better, it gives you confidence or something. It is kind of like the placebo effect - a sugar pill. Perceptions, even if they may be false, can have real effects on reality.
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