TubeNet

The other thread started to make me wonder about current trend in must have keys for PROFESSIONAL ORCHESTRA tubas. In your opinion, what are the must have keys of tuba to be an effective player in a professional orchestra?

I would imagine that every serious professional tubist (in America at least) can play at least three keys of tuba - BBb, CC, and either Eb or F.

Bloke, As always you distill the topic into a most common sense and tangible form. Kudos

Tubist of Time wrote:Who cares, as long as the sound is there? Just play the damn horn

Now there's a tubist with a future...

What are the "must have" keys for tubas in a pro-orchestra?

House keys and car keys. If your tuba provides that, it has all the right keys.

I highly recommend playing a tuba!

Yes, I know, I am a smart @$$. However, really, it is less about instrument key now that at any time in the recent past. My top tubist plays phenomenally well on his VMI stencil BBb. Others in the studio have CCs, but he has the most "CC" like sound (meaning clear and compact).

For most players, a full sized BBb or CC can handle quintet, bands, and standard orchestra rep pretty well. For someone interested in playing a lot of solo rep, an F or Eb may make life a little less work, but it can be done well with your standard BBb or CC, too.

I make my living as a teacher, so most of my playing is aimed at giving the student a sound concept worth emulating... usually that means my CC tuba. In contrast, in the world of academia, there is a heavy emphasis on solo repertoire. Therefore I play a lot of F tuba at school. In the "real" world, I almost never play F tuba. In fact, I would be better served with a smaller CC.

Short answer: Gigging pro needs 1 good tuba - 4/4 BBb, CC, or possibly big Eb or F. really, it just doesn't matter... just play whatever it is well.

Major orchestra (how many of us fit that category?) - probably needs a big CC or BBb, and something smaller for light rep - 2 horns.

Tubist in chest beating contest needs a 6/4 CC (BBb just won't do). A small CC for Quintet, A Big F (preferably bigger than the small CC) to balance a 376 piece orchestra, and a small F that doesn't sound too CC tuba-like for playing the John Williams and baroque transcriptions. Of course a French C tuba or Alexander tenorhorn for Bydlo (even thought the 2nd trombone will actually do it on a borrowed lacquer Yamaha YEP321 with a 6.5 al mouthpiece).

Cynicism aside: I think that it is good to experiment. I went through way too many horns to find the right fit for my taste and profession. I am now a recovering horn slut. Like many of us, I often think there is something better out there for me. But I doubt there really is. No matter what I play, after a few months (the honeymoon) I end up sounding pretty much like me again.

The cliche': "happiness is not having what you want, but rather wanting what you have" rings true.

Thank you for participating in this point less and totally unscientific survey. The result so far is interesting, and pretty much expected.

Keep 'em coming!

Mr. Whitten

Thank you for your comments! Your posting was by far the most informative and on the target with the point of the thread.

I have heard recitals by:
Roger Bobo
Michael Thornton
Jim Self
Gene Pokorney
where all four played both CC and F tubas. Within the context of tuba alone,or tuba/piano, or in Mr. Bobo's case tuba/synthesizer, I left all four recitals wondering "Why would anyone EVER play a recital on ANYTHING but an "F" tuba?" I use these four as an example, because everyone KNOWS that they have superb command of CC tubas, and don't just play primarily F tuba.

Flame away, if you will, but as a SOLO instrument the F simply left the CCs in It's dust. Michael Lind and John Fletcher made nearly entire careers playing bass tubas, Fletcher once told me he never played anything other than Eb (admittedly a pretty big one) on ANY of the "Philip Jones Brass Ensemble" recordings, dispite him pictured on the cover of one album with his Holton CC.

BATs have their place, but unless you're playing in a relatively large orchestra or a band where you need that extra bass sound, you're better off with a smaller tuba. As tuba players and lovers, we tend to get a little "carried away" to the point of not realizing that "Joe average listener" could care less how BIG, WIDE, MAJESTIC, (choose your own term), etc. the sound is. A really big horn just gets in the way of your message.

I once asked Arnold Jacobs what he thought of tuba solo albums. He thought they're just fine,............ if you're a tuba player.

I was fortunate enough to hear the premier of John Steven's "JOURNEY" for Solo Tuba & Orchestra in "Symphony Center" in Chicago a few years back. Gene Pokorny played on the big York CC that the concerto was specifically written for.The "Mother of All BATs", if you will. Gene's playing was stellar. Controlled, expressive, and exciting he gave the audience a "tour de force" of the capabilities of this marvelous instrument. About 20 minutes into the 31 minute piece, the orchestra and soloist "wind down" and decrescendo to a nearly inaudible level. Just at this moment, the voice of an older woman of "proper breeding" (it sounded like "Mrs. Howell" from Gilligan's Island) cried out in a decidedly anguished tone: "THANK GOD IT'S OVER!" Everyone within earshot could barely hold back laughter, if hold it back at all. It "woke me up" at that moment that I wasn't "just listening to a great performance" but listening to a great "TUBA performance". Brian Frederiksen and I later mused on "whether or not she renewed her subscription" after the piece gradually gained momentum and went on another 10-12 minutes.

Is the world ready for great tuba artistry, or does it even care? Apparently "greatness" on the tuba is created and recognized by a select few - those with the experience and exposure to appreciate it's difficulties and cultivate it in spite of the reward of public anonymity. I would have to say that this fits the desription of "Unsung Hero" to a "T". But then, WE knew that ALREADY.

I have been criticized about my workmanlike attitude toward music.This may be a result of playing and singing for my supper (better sing real purty) for 50 years.
Your audience could care less about your equipment. They are seeking something and an astute musician who figures out what it is and provides it for them is in for a rewarding evening. If you are fully prepared to perform,you can focus on the audience,project you sound where necessary and even juggle your program around to emphasize the material that is working.
If you can do all this and have fun at the same time,the party will start onstage and eminate outwards from there.

on the other hand,if no body else really cares,notices,or is closely listening,why not play a horn that is personally satisfying? i frequently play for a large,beautiful stone church in a well to do part of Montgomery and usually on my big Holton.the church is huge and resonant I tend to let 'er rip on the tutti stuff(usually a full orchestra or band for the 4th of July).It's a satisfying place to play and the congregation is always complimentary.This past 4th gig the governor was in attendance on the 5th row.My wife,who was playing clarinet and could clearly see the gov. from her vantage,said he watched me the whole night.After the last cutoff,he makes a beeline to me and says with sincere enthusiasm"Man,you are awesome!" like I needed any encouragement no,he's not a trained musician,but he is still the governor.my hat still fits a little snug.

Jonathantuba wrote:I have often wondered why in the USA you generally start players on BBb tuba. It may be excellent as the bass in the band

I think you hit the nail on the head!

Jonathantuba wrote:I just know from my personal experience that I did not fully develop as a player until I changed to Eb and such works as the Vaughan Williams Concerto was open to me.

Of course, most who play BBb tuba in middle school will give it up, and of those who don't, most will never do more than play in a community band. Therefore, the bigger horn is exactly what meets the needs of the vast majority of school children who take up the tuba.

I also expanded my repertoire beyond the Bb, but I have always been involved in ensembles and performance opportunities beyond most community-band tuba players, despite than many of them play better than I do.

In another curmudgeonly tirade, Bloke declared that is main objective while sitting in a professional orchestra is not hearing the word "tuba" escape the maestro's lips during rehearsal. Instrument choice seems a ways down on the list of consideration.

Personally, I choose instruments based on which one makes the music at hand easiest for me to get the effect I want. And the effect I want is something I pursue mostly for my own enjoyment. I seriously doubt that pros are all that much different.

Rick "who looked for the choice 'Yes' in the poll but couldn't find it" Denney

Jonathantuba wrote:I have often wondered why in the USA you generally start players on BBb tuba. It may be excellent as the bass in the band, but hardly gives them the best tool to develop as a soloist. I think our British practice of starting on EEb tuba more sensible - it can provide a satisfactory bass in the band, but is also a suitable instrument to develop solo playing.

Big contrabass tubas are great for solos. A tuba solo is basically comic relief, and the bigger and more unwieldy the instrument, the more effective it is in this role.

Public schools aren't preparing tuba players for careers in classical music anyway, I hope. Even today, isn't it true that most of the paying gigs in the US are jazz, loosely speaking? Not that it's impossible to play an Eb tuba there, but you sure don't want to compromise much on the ability to lay down a solid, compelling bass.

bloke wrote:RAGGMOPP-Doodlyboo-bah-dyadoo

Where can get one of those? Is it available in silver or lacquer?

tubaman5150 wrote:

bloke wrote:RAGGMOPP-Doodlyboo-bah-dyadoo

Where can get one of those? Is it available in silver or lacquer?

only available in raw brass with aluminum trim and having 4 rotors and a fifth piston under the thumb

Paul S wrote:only available in raw brass with aluminum trim and having 4 rotors and a fifth piston under the thumb

... like a "Schmidt-wrap" horn!

I am really heartened and encouraged by "BLOKE"'s post, likening bass/contrabass tuba to oboe/eng. horn, bassoon/contrabassoon and the folks that agreed. I never expected that so many might be in agreement with me.

In Germany (at least when I was there in the mid 70s) when the music indicated "Basstuba" or "Tuba" you played "F" tuba. When it stated "Kontrabasstuba" you played BBb, and usually a BIG one. Close scrutiny of the Bruckner symphonies reveals times when you play one, the other, or BOTH (though thankfully not at the same time - that would be quite a trick, Eh?) on one symphony. Composers of that period understood the tuba more intimately than most of us suspect (see Berlioz's praise of the tuba in his book on orchestration) and knew the difference between bass/contrabass tubas and WHY they used one or the other.

Once you thoroughly master the "F" tuba, this is not as "impractical" as it sounds (playing the bulk of literature on it), and the resultant effect creates a performance that is more "authentic" than possible when playing on ONE BIG HOOTER (-John Fletcher's desciption of his Holton) all the time.

It can be argued that "trumpeters no longer play cornet parts on cornet" etc., etc., but do we need to follow THEIR lead in regard to what instruments we use? Tuba players have the FREEDOM to play the WIDEST range of instruments of anyone in a modern symphony. With all the talk of the boredom that can accompany professional orchestra tubaists life, they have noone else to blame but themselves if they insist on clinging to one BAT for the majority of their work......

Someone who embraces a HISTORICAL perspective.

Agreed, Jonathantuba. Also, most American repetoir would be probably most "faithfully" performed on a contrabass tuba.

I spoke (with the help of an interperter) to an aged tuba player in the Moscow Philharmonic some 30 years ago, and he lamented that in his youth the general practice was to use the "F" tuba. He claimed that MOST of the Tchaikovsky orchestra works had traditionally been played on "F", and he "missed" this tradition. He went on to explain that the "F" tuba was considered a "German" instrument, and "nationalistic pressure" promoted the BBb tuba to it's present status, for all practical purposes eliminating the "F" from Russian orchestras.

This may explain the "about-face" nature of writing when comparing Borodin, Rimsky-Korsakov and Tchaikovsky with Shostakovich, Prokofiev and Kabalevsky. Not so much as in actual range and register (although that evidence exists to a point: Rimsky rarely uses the low F# that was problematic on early "F"s, even "altering" the opening theme of "Sheherazade") as in "context".

Tchaikovsky probably wrote for BOTH bass and contrabass tubas, so a tradition of "doubling" probably existed in the late 1800s. Unfortunatly, those who could best enlighten us are no longer with us, and we are left with our own judgement when choosing what tuba to play when performing these works today.

i guess this thread needs a naysayer.i find the f tuba inadequate to put a satisfying bottom on any large romantic work on anything below a d below the staff.the sonority at loud volumes is just not there.and thats on a yfb822,the most CCish of f's.of course thats with my limited chops.to be perfectly frank,I'm not too concerned about historical practices.the historical performances i've heard were very dissatisfying to me and i really don't care to hear another.if the great composers were alive today,do you think they would still choose those period instruments?i think they just made the best of the bad instruments that were available...