Good luck!
LOW Eb - Db on a 5 valve C
-
joh_tuba
- 4 valves
- Posts: 635
- Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:34 pm
It depends a bit on you and your tuba and how the two of you interact what fingering is going to be most in tune. I would suggest trying 1245, 345, and 134 for Eb. 2345 or 1345 are strong possibilities for D. Db is most likely 12345 possibly with a slide pull for good measure. That should give you a good starting point.
Good luck!
Good luck!
-
Allen
- 3 valves
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:29 am
- Location: Boston MA area
I agree that it depends on you and your equipment. On my MW 32 CC, I use 345 for Eb (1245 is just a little sharp), 1345 for D, and 12345 plus a slide pull for Db.
What I did was work with a tuner to figure out the best fingerings. I'm still developing my low range, and have a tendency to play sharp down in the basement. Therefore, I find that using slightly flat fingerings helps to keep me on pitch. If you ask me about my basement register fingerings next year, I might give you a different answer.
All anyone can do is suggest starting points; you will have to discover your fingerings for yourself. Good luck with your low range. It gets better with time (and practice).
Allen Walker
What I did was work with a tuner to figure out the best fingerings. I'm still developing my low range, and have a tendency to play sharp down in the basement. Therefore, I find that using slightly flat fingerings helps to keep me on pitch. If you ask me about my basement register fingerings next year, I might give you a different answer.
All anyone can do is suggest starting points; you will have to discover your fingerings for yourself. Good luck with your low range. It gets better with time (and practice).
Allen Walker
-
glangfur
- bugler
- Posts: 151
- Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:33 pm
- Location: Boston, MA
I've just been struggling with this, as a bass trombone player learning the double on an extremely low part. I have to play some loud low Ebs in a couple of different contexts. So far the best fingering for that note, on this particular horn (a Rudy Meinl 3/4), seems to be 1245. Some days it feels better 134, with the 1st valve slide pulled dangerously far. For some reason, 345 almost never feels good.
The problem with the tuner in this register, of course, is that most tuners have trouble hearing that low. It's even worse on bass trombone because of all the overtones. What I've found to work is to use a clip-on mic and experiment with where on the horn you clip it - sometimes clipping to the bell just doesn't work. On bass trombone, I have the best success clipping it to my spit valve lever - no kidding! On this tuba, it seems to work pretty well clipped to the end of the rod that the valve levers are mounted on.
The problem with the tuner in this register, of course, is that most tuners have trouble hearing that low. It's even worse on bass trombone because of all the overtones. What I've found to work is to use a clip-on mic and experiment with where on the horn you clip it - sometimes clipping to the bell just doesn't work. On bass trombone, I have the best success clipping it to my spit valve lever - no kidding! On this tuba, it seems to work pretty well clipped to the end of the rod that the valve levers are mounted on.
Gabe Langfur
Bass Trombonist
Rhode Island Philharmonic
Vermont Sympony
Lecturer of Bass Trombone, Boston University
Guest Artist/Teacher in Trombone, U of RI
S. E. Shires Co.
gabe@seshires.com" target="_blank" target="_blank
Bass Trombonist
Rhode Island Philharmonic
Vermont Sympony
Lecturer of Bass Trombone, Boston University
Guest Artist/Teacher in Trombone, U of RI
S. E. Shires Co.
gabe@seshires.com" target="_blank" target="_blank
-
Jeff Miller
- bugler
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:17 am
- Location: London, UK
- Contact:
One other option for the low Eb is 1234 - I don't think I saw that one.
I generally find that a horn can be set up in one of two ways - I think of them as "high" and "low".
With a "high" setup, a low D (on a CC) would probably work best on 1345, low Eb probably 345, and low E 135. Low C# would be 12345+slide pull.
Conversely, with a "low" setup, you might find that C# = 12345 (no pull), D = 2345, Eb = 1245, E = 245 or 1235(with pull).
Which setup you use will depend on the tuning of your 4th and 5th valves. My Yamaha F has a slightly longer (in a relative sense) 5th slide, so I have to use the low setup on that. On my other instruments, I will set the tuba up depending on the piece I'm playing.
I have found that the worst note for slide tuning/setup on any of my instruments is always the equivalent of a low E on a CC tuba. I really can't find a way to pitch this without having to pull a slide to get it right in the middle of the slot.
Of course, all this will vary from tuba to tuba, and player to player.
By the way, the best equivalent of low E on a CC tuba that I've found is 34+a big pull. It's useless if you have to use another note with valves 3 and 4 in a hurry, but it really sits nicely on that fingering.
Sorry this is boring, but I hope it helps.
Jeff
I generally find that a horn can be set up in one of two ways - I think of them as "high" and "low".
With a "high" setup, a low D (on a CC) would probably work best on 1345, low Eb probably 345, and low E 135. Low C# would be 12345+slide pull.
Conversely, with a "low" setup, you might find that C# = 12345 (no pull), D = 2345, Eb = 1245, E = 245 or 1235(with pull).
Which setup you use will depend on the tuning of your 4th and 5th valves. My Yamaha F has a slightly longer (in a relative sense) 5th slide, so I have to use the low setup on that. On my other instruments, I will set the tuba up depending on the piece I'm playing.
I have found that the worst note for slide tuning/setup on any of my instruments is always the equivalent of a low E on a CC tuba. I really can't find a way to pitch this without having to pull a slide to get it right in the middle of the slot.
Of course, all this will vary from tuba to tuba, and player to player.
By the way, the best equivalent of low E on a CC tuba that I've found is 34+a big pull. It's useless if you have to use another note with valves 3 and 4 in a hurry, but it really sits nicely on that fingering.
Sorry this is boring, but I hope it helps.
Jeff
-
Jay Bertolet
- pro musician
- Posts: 470
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:04 am
- Location: South Florida
Those are some very interesting comments Jeff! While reading your comments I was struck by just how player specific these sorts of issues can be.
For example, you state that the low E on a CC tuba is the worst note in your tuning schemes. For me, this same E is the best and most stable note. Also, I found that some of your "High" scheme fingerings work very well for me and other "Low" scheme fingerings are also on my chart. In fact, I only use one set of such fingerings and they generally result in no slide pulling (with only one note being an exception) to be in tune. Like I said, it amazes me how much these things can change from player to player.
To address the original poster's question, here is what I would suggest regarding those fingerings:
F - 45
E - 234
Eb - 345
D - 1345
Db - 12345
Let me further state that the slides on all my horns are basically in similar positions. These are:
1st - Out a bit, maybe 1-3"
2nd - Not out at all
3rd - Out a bit, maybe 2-3"
4th - Out a bit, maybe 2-3"
5th - Out a little bit, 1/2-1"
Just to clarify, my 5th valve is a long whole step configuration. Using these positions, my main slide is generally out between 1-3", depending on the horn. You will notice that the 1st slide is the one that involves the most variation from horn to horn.
Using this setup, the only note I have difficulty with is the low D. Using the 1345 combination means pushing in any 1 slide almost all the way. All the rest require no manipulation for baseline tuning though I always keep the alternates ready for when pitches need more radical adjustment in a given situation.
When I tune a horn, I always set it up so that the 4th plays D and low G (on a CC tuba) well in tune. I then set the 5th so that the combination of 45 plays the low F exactly in tune. After that, the rest usually falls into place as long as the first three slides are placed properly for the middle range notes.
Thanks for the interesting discussion!
My opinion for what it's worth..
For example, you state that the low E on a CC tuba is the worst note in your tuning schemes. For me, this same E is the best and most stable note. Also, I found that some of your "High" scheme fingerings work very well for me and other "Low" scheme fingerings are also on my chart. In fact, I only use one set of such fingerings and they generally result in no slide pulling (with only one note being an exception) to be in tune. Like I said, it amazes me how much these things can change from player to player.
To address the original poster's question, here is what I would suggest regarding those fingerings:
F - 45
E - 234
Eb - 345
D - 1345
Db - 12345
Let me further state that the slides on all my horns are basically in similar positions. These are:
1st - Out a bit, maybe 1-3"
2nd - Not out at all
3rd - Out a bit, maybe 2-3"
4th - Out a bit, maybe 2-3"
5th - Out a little bit, 1/2-1"
Just to clarify, my 5th valve is a long whole step configuration. Using these positions, my main slide is generally out between 1-3", depending on the horn. You will notice that the 1st slide is the one that involves the most variation from horn to horn.
Using this setup, the only note I have difficulty with is the low D. Using the 1345 combination means pushing in any 1 slide almost all the way. All the rest require no manipulation for baseline tuning though I always keep the alternates ready for when pitches need more radical adjustment in a given situation.
When I tune a horn, I always set it up so that the 4th plays D and low G (on a CC tuba) well in tune. I then set the 5th so that the combination of 45 plays the low F exactly in tune. After that, the rest usually falls into place as long as the first three slides are placed properly for the middle range notes.
Thanks for the interesting discussion!
My opinion for what it's worth..
-
Rob Wilson
- bugler
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:17 am
- Location: Klamath Falls, OR
Relative Fingerings for Eb
Jay, I always appriciate your insightful post. Would you use the same relative fingering on your Willson 3400? I have trouble getting the F# and F in tune.
Rob W. <><
Rob W. <><
-
Jeff Miller
- bugler
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:17 am
- Location: London, UK
- Contact:
Oops! I made a typo - my fingering for low E should have read "145".Jeff Miller wrote:
With a "high" setup, a low D (on a CC) would probably work best on 1345, low Eb probably 345, and low E 135. Low C# would be 12345+slide pull.
Jeff
Jay - I'm glad that my post elicited a response! It's nice to know that someone is at least reading this stuff.
It was interesting to compare our fingering systems. One interesting thing that I've noticed is that I play very much on the bottom side of the slots; most of my tubas require little or no pull of the main tuning slide. I don't know why that is; it just seems to be the way my concept and embouchure work together. Also, I like to have a short first valve slide - I've managed it on my 4/4 CC and one of my F's, but haven't had the work done on my Yorkbrunner. This allows some other options (if you find them necessary!)
I'll play around with your suggestions and see how they fit.
Cheers,
Jeff
-
Jay Bertolet
- pro musician
- Posts: 470
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:04 am
- Location: South Florida
Rob,
I do use these same fingerings on my Willson 3400. For the low F and F#, they work just fine. Low E is an amazing note on this horn and the low F and F# are especially useful for the V-W Concerto. On the 3400, the slide I push in for the low F is the 1st. Mine is generally out a bit and pushing it in for that note seems to be just about right. Just make sure that your 5th valve is configured with the long whole step slide. These fingerings won't work with the other slide!
Jeff,
The differences in our approaches may be dictating the systems we use. I tend to use a longer 1st valve slide and I tend to play on the higher edge of the low range slots. I know this is a side effect of my "one embouchure for everything" approach. I noticed this right away when I stopped radically shifting for low range notes. Once I figured out just what the difference in pitch was going to be, it was a simple matter to adjust the slides accordingly.
You may find that my fingering system will play considerably flat for you if you're shifting, and consequently opening your embouchure, when playing it that range. I'll be curious to hear what you find if you do try those fingerings.
My opinion for what it's worth...
I do use these same fingerings on my Willson 3400. For the low F and F#, they work just fine. Low E is an amazing note on this horn and the low F and F# are especially useful for the V-W Concerto. On the 3400, the slide I push in for the low F is the 1st. Mine is generally out a bit and pushing it in for that note seems to be just about right. Just make sure that your 5th valve is configured with the long whole step slide. These fingerings won't work with the other slide!
Jeff,
The differences in our approaches may be dictating the systems we use. I tend to use a longer 1st valve slide and I tend to play on the higher edge of the low range slots. I know this is a side effect of my "one embouchure for everything" approach. I noticed this right away when I stopped radically shifting for low range notes. Once I figured out just what the difference in pitch was going to be, it was a simple matter to adjust the slides accordingly.
You may find that my fingering system will play considerably flat for you if you're shifting, and consequently opening your embouchure, when playing it that range. I'll be curious to hear what you find if you do try those fingerings.
My opinion for what it's worth...