TubeNet

Just wondering what preferences are around here for euphonium shanks

small shank
"euro"/medium shank (pre 73 B&H) Willson North Amrerican 2900
large shank

I've tried all 3 on several horns but I like the medium shank best on a euph, despite the small mouthpiece selection.

General comments:

Small shank = a fair amount of resistance.
Euro shank = happy medium in terms of resistance.
Large shank = very little resistance.

The problem with the small shank is that very few good euphoniums have small shanks. It's nearly impossible to find a compensating euphonium with a small shank. Getting a large mouthpiece can make up for some for this. A lot of players like the high resistance associated with the small shank because it, in some ways, makes rapid articulation easier.

The large shank euphoniums are usually the best out there. They are almost all compensating. They are free blowing and give great sound.

I guess the euro shank is a good compromise between the small and large shanks.

Overall, I think the player should be more concerned with playing the instrument they want, instead of the shank they want.

However, I believe that all euphonium players should also play trombone. This is another topic on it's own... but my basic reasons for this are:
a) ability to play in standard jazz ensembles and orchestras
b) to develop the ear, legato tonguing
c) to be able to play in brass quintet (and occasionally play the odd euphonium part in brass 5tet rep).

So, if you also play trombone, then your euphonium shank should match the shank of your trombone (ideally you would use the same mouthpiece for euph and t-bone). If the euphonium player doubles on bass trombone, then the mouthpieces would, most likely, need to be different.

quinterbourne wrote:So, if you also play trombone, then your euphonium shank should match the shank of your trombone (ideally you would use the same mouthpiece for euph and t-bone). If the euphonium player doubles on bass trombone, then the mouthpieces would, most likely, need to be different.

I would disagree with that. I think that there is a matching mouthpiece to each horn with each player.I play a Wick SM4 on euph, for bass bone, I'd usually be around a 1.5-1g mouthpiece. On my small bore tenor I have a 6.5AL, on my vbone I have a kelly 12c.

These choices came down to what worked best for me. I think people overexaggerate the changes in mouthpiece size. I think for someone with a properly developed embouchure that switching mouthpieces isn't an issue other than original orientation to the charactersiteics of the mouthpiece.

My argument is that when you alternate between different instruments, you should strive to keep as much in common as you can, such that your muscles aren't forced to make dramatic changes when switching.

Different mouthpieces, yes, where necessary. People should, however, try to keep the rim as similar as possible. If you happen to find changing to a completely different mouthpiece works best for you, then that is good... I'm not arguing against your choices.

Keep in mind that if, for example, you own a large shank euphonium and a small shank tenor trombone... there are certain mouthpieces made for both small and large shank receivers. Schilke 51D is a good candidate for this - works well on trombones and euphoniums, and is available in large and small shank.

I own a small shank euphonium right now. I use a Denis Wick 4AY with it. If I ever move to a large shank euphonium or trombone, I will definitely give the large shank equivalent, the 4AL, a try... and probably give it preference to break any "ties."

I value your opinions, I'm not trying to argue against them. I agree players should do whatever is best, even if it means dramatic changes in mouthpieces.

I don't think that there are enough euphoniums out there with interchangable parts to make a real distinction. To me, I would not care if it was a medium shank or large shank, as long as it played and sounded good. I feel that a small shank does provide too much resistance though.

The euph I play, a 642, has a large shank. So does the 842, which is really the only euphonium I like better than my own. However, with Willsons, I prefer the 2900 over the 2950. So it really shows that it all depends on the complete instrument.

For doubling, the only thing that you could try to match is the rim. The resistance and the way trombone and euphonium play is so different that trying to match shanks would be a waste of time. They are two different instruments, treat them that way and cater to their requirments.

quinterbourne wrote:My argument is that when you alternate between different instruments, you should strive to keep as much in common as you can, such that your muscles aren't forced to make dramatic changes when switching.

Different mouthpieces, yes, where necessary. People should, however, try to keep the rim as similar as possible.

Hmm...interesting.

I'm a tubist and switch between CC tuba and F tuba on a daily basis.

I use a totally different mouthpiece on my F than I do on my CC in part because it's a physical reminder that my F tuba is not a CC tuba and cannot be played as one.

For me the cheater mouthpiece were always a compromise. They were usually "CC tuba mouthpieces" (such as the SH-II or Laskey 30H) that were "shallowed-up" (SH-II "F" and Laskey 30F) to use on F tuba so that one would be using the same rim all the time. They are usually still too deep or wide to function well on F tuba despite often being very comfortable to play.

Well, I guess it is a matter of personal preference. I like to keep stuff the same (or as similar as possible), for personal reasons.

I know a guy who insists on changing between three or more mouthpieces between every single piece we play, and even between movements. In my opinion, you shouldn't let the equipment do the talking.

I think people should find something they can get totally used to. I find switching mouthpieces to be a "traumatic" event, since so much changes between (in feel). I believe one can "work up" a single mouthpiece such that they are able to play in all registers and even produce different tone colour depending on the type of ensemble and repertoire they are playing.

Ultimately, the final product is the real important thing... so whatever ever brings you the most excellence in performce, I will totally agree with.

Hmm -- here's another two cents:

I "double" (if it can be called that!) on a Conn Cavalier (14k) sousaphone and a Besson BBb 3-valve comp tuba. They have different receivers, with the Besson being the older slightly smaller one. So I have to have two different mouthpieces. I chose to match the rim as best as possible, then match a similar cup, with the Conn being a little more rounded at the bottom to get more overtones to project outdoors, whilst the Besson is more Helleberg styled, with more of a funnel shape to get a deeper tone. The throat is the same, and the backbores are a function of the different shanks to the receivers and lead pipes.

So I am also one who thinks the rim diameter and profile are important to keep the same if your instruments are at a similar pitch. Would I do that if my instruments were instead a BBb and Eb or F tuba? I don't know. If I get an Eb or F, I'll let you know. BTW, I find it easier to center and get higher range on the Besson Wick 1 than I do on the Souzy Kelly 18! The experience bears out the specs: their rims are identical! (well, to less than .005 inch, anyway!)

My take on the problem is:

Don’t limit your choices of mouthpiece!

The Yamaha YEP-321 is no bad instrument at all. But even with the Denis Wick 4AY especially designed for this horn, I find the small shank mouthpieces too limiting.

The 321 clone from Weril may be less well finished especially in the lacquering, but it has a large leadpipe cum receiver, and the added sound potentials provided by just that single factor are downright amazing.

The old Besson/B&H/European/Willson medium receiver allows for a much smaller selection of "off-the-rack" mouthpieces. All serious mouthpiece makers will provide you any mouthpiece model with the medium shank. But only on special order. That’s too cumbersome for me.

Surprise, surprise! I favour the large shank, especially as I have done quite a bit of doubling on bassbone and euph. My choice of mouthpiece may be to the larger side, the Yeo signature from Yamaha. It takes quite a bit of responsible practising, but the potentials are rewarding.

Klaus

I played in an Army National Guard band when I was an undergrad that has Hirsbrunner Euphoniums with 3 interchangable receivers. On that particular horn I preferred the medium size receiver. The small reciever worked pretty well, too, but being primarily a tubist, I didn't like all the resistance. The large reciever probably sounded the best, but the pitch was terrible. With wide variety of mouthpiece and receiver options, the winning ticket for me was a Shilke 52D custom made for the medium shank receiver. My collegue preferred the small shank and a Wick 4AY. Nobody could play with decent pitch on the large shank regardless of mouthpiece.

I have a collegue who owns a large shank euphonium and a bunch of REALLY good large shank mouthpieces. However, she uses an adapter and uses a small shank super small and super shallow mouthpiece.

I guess personal preference wins, but I believe you need to gradually step up in mouthpiece size and depth as you develop as a player. She is a good player... but, in many ways, she has hit a wall and is unable to go any further ahead.

Sure, higher notes are more difficult on larger mouthpieces... but they develop chops and make your tone much better (including the tone of the high notes).

I've tried going back to some smaller euphonium mouthpiece and I can't stand how I sound. The smaller mouthpieces give my tone such a weak and thin sound. I can't play loud and the lower register sucks. Sure, the upper register is easier, but it still sounds bad. Upgrade!

bloke wrote:Euphoniums fitted with small shank receivers tend to give an instrument that "YEP321" feel.

Euphoniums fitted with "medium" shanks can define inconvenience when wishing to try out various brands/models of mouthpieces.

then you just buy more mouthpieces...
I've got every medium shanked Wick except the 4AM (I didn't like the 4AL so I didn't even try it).

Why would anyone buy so many mouthpieces???

Go to a store and try them all out. Find the best ones you like and purchase them, not all of them. I guess if you have lots of money then you can do this, but the idea still seems quite strange to me. Surely you don't use all of them? I can't imagine going back and forth between that many mouthpieces? I don't know exactly how many mouthpieces you are talking about here, but I would think there's quite a few. I think you need to find just a few (ideally one) mouthpiece(s) that you like the best and then spend all your time trying to become as proficient as possible on it/them.

quinterbourne wrote:Why would anyone buy so many mouthpieces???

my horn came with the 6BM... I hated it, my teacher loved it... he did't have to play on it though.
I bought a Kelly 5g(euro), I loved it... so comfortable... and I played it for any ensemble where my teacher wasn't the conductor... he hated it.
So I ordered in the SM3M and SM4M. I play on the SM4M all the time and I use the SM3M when I am planning to spend more time in the pedal register because it speaks much easier.

aside from the 4AM... that's all the wicks and one of the 2 Kellys.

There was nowhere within the province that had ANY euro shank mouthpieces in stock.

In response to Bloke's comment, some stores will actually order in mouthpieces for you to try (Long and McQuade will). Heck, they even ordered in several tenor (alto) horn mouthpieces to try. They are fairly accommodating and it is a substantial store. (Actually, they've started carrying Perantucci tubas and have a few in stock).

Yeah, Long & McQuade on Bloor St. in Toronto actually has a very good selection of mouthpieces, especially since a lot of the "euphonium" mouthpieces are also considered trombone mouthpieces. They also keep a record of the inventories of other stores across the province, and can easily get stuff shipped to one store for you to try out. And yes, they will order stuff in for you, and if you don't like it you don't have to buy it. They're VERY accomodating (and their prices aren't necessarily that bad).