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I've owned a Sanders for pushing 25 years and like it just fine. That said, it's made from thin easily dented brass, so I definitely wouldn't recommend it for any kind of school use, especially middle school. Sanders need too much TLC for that environment.

OTOH, I haven't seen any of the current models so my info is pretty dated.

I don't envy you trying to find tubas for a MS. I'm not sure that indestructability isn't more important than all other factors combined.

Or maybe you should go as cheap as you can find, planning up front on replacing them every 2 or 3 years. It's not like you're going to get really great tubas on your budget anyway.

Jim 'shuddering at the thought of a 14 year old getting his fingers on my tuba' Wagner

While I cannot speak from direct experience with the Weril tubas (only anecdotal experiences of others) I do know that the Weril euphoniums are quite good. I have two students who purchased the 4 valve euphoniums and they have held up VERY well. Neither of these kids are careful and there have not been any serious injuries to either horn. The cases are very nice (better than the horns) and the large shank makes mouthpiece selection easy. If we had budget, I would buy tubas.

Weril - I have played the small Weril BBb and CC a few times and have liked the sound. On the particular instruments I have seen, the finish was good and the construction was fine. I would not hesitate to buy one for myself. For MS, the small 3/4 size wouldn't be too bad. I would not buy them for high school.

Jupiter - This company is really coming along. I have a 4 valve euphonium, several marching baritones, four 4 valve sousaphones, and 2 concert tubas in my school's inventory. In short, they are fine. However, our students all choose the older Kings, bachs, Yamahas, and Conns when given the option. They work fine, have good finishes, and nice cases. But there is just something about them that makes them less desirable. I do not think I can quantify why students don't like them. I don't think anybody complains about using the Jupiters, but they prefer the other instruments. I have played the 4 valve euphonium quite a bit. Again, it works fine, but I still prefer our King 2280s and Yamaha 321s.

Sanders - I have too little experience with these to give an opinion.

If I were buying for a MS on a tight budget, I would choose the 3/4 sized Werils. I have heard that their larger Yamaha 321 copy is good, too. But for your usual 3/4 sized Middle School student, a 3/4 sized horn may make playing more managable.

I know it wasn't in the subject list, but does anyone know anything about the 3/4 Holton 663? It would fit the category of a middle school tuba, I think.
http://tinyurl.com/9ktwj

The Sanders tubas of 25 years ago were made by Cerveny/Amati, but now I think most or all of them are Asian. I had one from the middle 80's what was a dent magnet. It played nicely but was utterly unsuitable for middle school because of its fragility. The new ones may or may not be better--I've not handled one.

Werils are very similar to Yamahas. They have a model that is like the Yamaha 621 which is 3/4 size and maybe that's what you are looking for. They are decent instruments and a good value. Weril also has a copy of the 4/4 top-action Yamaha 321. It's not a bad instrument though I don't really like the design personally. The repair-shop gurus seems to think that the top-action design is a little more able to handle school destruction, in that the valves aren't as vulnerable to the standard fall from resting on the bell. Werils are imported by DEG and have a reasonable spare parts capability. I think they are more than adequate for school use.

Jupiters have varied over the years, and their cheaper instruments, at least, are not that well regarded. Their better instrument, the 582, isn't that bad, in my opinion, but I've never had to live with one.

Another option is the Dalyan, which can be bought for a similar price as the above and which meets your cost criteria, and it comes with a hard case that might help it survive the school environment a little better. The others don't come with a case and you'll have to buy them separately. They have a model that is similar to a Cerveny Piggy called the Prague, and it's a nice instrument with good enough construction quality, and should do nicely for middle school. They are imported by Orpheus music in San Antonio, who has a stake in the factory from what I understand, and who can supply spare parts. I've heard repair techs who don't like rotary tubas in school environments because of vulnerability, but I've seen a lot of horribly battered rotary tubas where the valves were the only parts that still worked. You'll have to make that call yourself.

Rick "preferring the Weril or Dalyan options" Denney

mgrtuba wrote:I'm a ms band director and have about $7000 and need 2 or 3 tubas. The local store recommends Weril and a university professor recommends Sanders or Jupiter. I know nothing about Weril and never had good luck with the Sanders or Jupiter. Please help

I would definitely consider getting a good quality 4 valve BBb tuba for use by the senior students. Spend about $5000 here.

example: Yamaha YBB321
http://www.wwbw.com/Yamaha-YBB321-Bb-Tuba-i28122.music

Then get some POS Jupiter or Amati for the remaining $2000 that none of us will cry over when some kid sends 'er down a flight of stairs.

I strongly believe that as students advance in the school setting (by grade year) they should be rewarded with better instruments. Not only will they sound better, it will give them some extra incentives. Of course, if the kid was a reckless brat in his first year, then you probably don't want to give him the expensive horn. See how the student treats the POS before you give him the expensive one (which should be locked up).

Actually, considering the way some middle schoolers abuse instruments these days (and I hope this isn't the case at your school), I have to wonder if Conn 36K fiberglass sousasphones might sometimes be the best choice.

Yes, I'm serious about that. Patrick Sheridan says that he started out on a fiberglass sousaphone, and he seems to be doing alright. So did I, although admittedly I don't play anything like Patrick Sheridan.

As long as they are in workable condition, I can't imagine anything about them that would hinder the development of someone learning to play the tuba in their first couple of years. Let them have a three- or four-valve upright tuba when they move on to high school.

For the money, Jupiter is becoming a fast favourite, with both good durability and intonation. The local university just bought about a dozen of their sousaphones for their marching band. The basic Jupiter fiberglass sousaphone is a copy of the older King, with the .687 bore.

If your MS band does not march, the 3 and 4 series tubas are also worth the money, with a slightly larger bore (.661 or .708)) than the Amati and most of the Chinese with the upright valves (.630 to .640), but not so large or so heavy as to make them hard to play or manoeuver. I've played Rytons and a few other Chinese, as well as the small Weril, and the Jupiter are in my view superior.

Used Conn 12J's can also be had, as well as old King 1240's, which have the .687 bore and enough metal to last another generation before needing major overhaul.

I havn't played the Dalyans, although I have heard good reports.

Yamaha are always great, but they are so much more expensive: you can get at least 2 of the others for the price of 1 Yamaha.

Then get some POS Jupiter or Amati for the remaining $2000 that none of us will cry over when some kid sends 'er down a flight of stairs.

Darn, that one hurt - I'm poor & work for a living, so I could only afford an Amati.

mgrtuba wrote:I worked in a instrument repair for the past 8 year during the summers and I will NOT buy a Cerveny or Amati after seeing the weak metal and abuse the instruments took.

THANK YOU!
Ah! As a repair tech I would say many more band teachers need to work with repair techs for awhile (or even ask them about instruments).
Some teachers will think, I'd rather have a newer good looking horn for the band, then they buy an Amati. 2 years later, it it looks much worse than the used King we tried to sell them for 500$ less.

sorry, I kinda ranted there....

Daryl Fletcher wrote:I have to wonder if Conn 36K fiberglass sousasphones might sometimes be the best choice.

Not for his budget, heh, heh.

I played a King fiberglass sousaphone from 7th through halfway through 12th grade. In the last half of my senior year, I was rewarded with a Miraphone 186 that my band director had borrowed from a local university. I knew it was an honor and I took good care of it, but musically I don't think I really appreciated it at the time.

Rick "who didn't own his own instrument until age 26" Denney

mgrtuba wrote:I'm looking at the Weril J680L, Jupiter 482L, and I'm only considering the Sanders because on the professor that recommended it.

Add the Dalyan to your list, especially since (I see now) you are in Texas. The Dalyan Prague is a little larger than the Weril, but it has a larger bore and will reward better air movement. The small Weril is like the small Yamaha, and backs up if you feed too much air into it. The Prague is more forgiving in that regard. The King is easier to play and a wonderful tuba, but nothing in your price range is like the King.

Rick "who suggests a phone call to Jim Gavigan at Orpheus Music" Denney

I own the Weril CC (my main $$ horn) and played on the Jupiter 482 at TMEA a couple of years ago. IMHO, if Jupiter made the 482 or 582 in a CC, I'd buy it in a heartbeat for a small horn. The Weril is great for the price and is fairly durable. Jupiter's in the past (10-15 years ago) were a POS, but they've made great progress and good instruments in the past 5 years. Having taught for over 11 years, rotary valves scare me in the hands of a middle school student. Remember, Jupiter US headquarters is based in Austin, TX, fyi.

pssshaw... why march with a sousa when you can take a 5/4 BBb Boosey and strap it to yourself with a drum sling?

another option might be to look for some nice reconditioned used tubas (which might even play better) for everyone else.

There are some very talented repair people who post on this board who may have something in inventory that could save your school some money in the short run by being less expensive, and also in the long run by being a better instrument.

There is also always Taylor music in Aberdeen, SD.

Taylor music is where I bought my (new) Mirafone 186. I would have bought a reconditioned older 186, but the waiting list was too long for me at that point. They have a good repair shop and often have reconditioned tubas in stock and ready to go.

I recommended Taylor to a beginning student's mom and she bought her son an econo overhauled saxophone and used their payment plan. It was a MUCH better saxophone than the new ones the school was buying and it cost quite a bit less.

their website is www.1800usaband.com

good luck finding the best fit for your middle school budget.

I agree with Bloke that if you MUST use fiberglass, the older horns are better. I personally prefer a slightly pre-UMI King sousaphone, because in my experience the smaller (.687) bore centers the tone and gives better projection than the larger bore Conn.

Add the Dalyan to your list, especially since (I see now) you are in Texas.

I played the Dalyans at the Midwest Clinic for about half an hour. I was really impressed with how they played, but they were VERY, VERY poorly put together. It was fun playing them, but I shudder at the idea of having to try to fix one. I'm not saying don't get one, but they're not built up to Weril standards yet, so keep that in mind.

Scott

King makes a nice 3/4 size tuba (1135? with the front-action valves) It uses the valve set from the old Conn 12J and is pretty well in tune with itself. It also has good sturdy bracing and should last awhile. It is only 3 valves so if you were looking for 4 valves then this won't help. I think you could get 2 of these horns with your $7000. and they would last a long time.

ken k

You can stop yelling now. Or should I say, "YOU CAN STOP YELLING NOW!"

Teletype machine. And the vacuum tube for lower case has done burnt out.