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Yeah, I know...asking for an opinion on a tuba here is like hanging out on the target end of a rifle range (So, I'm a Marine). But I'vwe gone through the archives and all I can find is a series of discussions over the switch from 1241 to 2341.

My question is about the quality, intonation, and such. I have an oportunity to take my son up and try one out. Would like some opinions beyond his. I expect to hear his thoughts if he doesn't like it...but being 14 will most likely not get much more than "It's okay".

If you can get it for around $2000 and it needs no work, then it's a reasonable horn. Many find them better than the 2341's that replaced them. The couple that I have played have been very good BBb tubas. I think that they are an ideal tuba for a high school aged student.

I prefer them for someone that age than most rotary valve tubas just because they can stand up to a little more abuse, not that that would happen intentionally.

I agree with Lew. They are good tubas in an absolute sense, but great tubas for the usual under-$2000 price. Full size with a full sound, usually excellent intonation, and (unique to the 1241's in my experience) quite resonant and fun to play. They are tall and a little ungainly, but thoroughly competent.

I would take a $3000 Miraphone over a King, however, unless I just had to have front-action pistons. I might also take a $3000 VMI/old B&S. I would not take a Yamaha or Cerveny first, at any price, at least not for a Bb tuba.

At the price, however, I don't think the 1241's can be beat.

Rick "always more impressed with 1241's than the later 2341's (excepting the current 2341)" Denney

I have been playing a King 1241 for the last 4 or 5 years. For a used piston tuba in the $1,000 to $2,000 price range, I would say it can be a good tuba. Of course, it is an older 35+ year old horn. If the valves are in good condition and the tubing is not bent or dented unnaturally, they can be a good force in a band situation. My tuba and a Mike Finn 3H can hold its own in the band I am a member of.

There are some intonation quirks that I hear are common to many tubas. The D in the staff and the F# in the lower portion of the staff can be a little flat. The playing range of my tuba is a much limited by the player as anything else. I can get 3 1/2 octaves out of it with some effort. The one downside to this model is that there isn't a movable tuning slide on the top of the 1st valve.

The 1241 with an upright bell projects a little differently than other tubas. If you are watching one from the audience with your eyes closed, it is difficult to place the location of the tuba. The sound spreads out so that it envelopes the band. For a more focused sound I use the forward facing bell.

I would say a 1241 is a good solid horn for a 14 year old. BTW if you are present when your son trys out the tuba, you should be able to hear or see (on a tuner) the intonation.

I've played a King 1240 (3 valve) in my community band for two years and it's a good solid horn that puts out a lot of sound. I have set a tuner on a stand and found that it plays most notes right on with very little slide jockying. It got a bit quirky for me though as I went higher up the staff and the notes did not slot as easily as on my cerveny tuba, or King and conn sousas. I suspect worn valves and some bigger dents in the conical tubing in the second wrap after the valves may be affecting this. I'm still debating wether to sell it or have it refurbished since I love to play it in summer concerts and I love the low range on it. Oh, mine has the upright bell and is an Eastlake made horn from I think the early 70's. Serial is 489044 if that helps.

I voted for "Great." Let me qualify that: with its .687 bore, 4 valves, good metal and good design, it's great for high school band. My high school band used them & had three. Obviously, most people will want a larger bore instrument, though not necessarily a larger bell, as they progress. But remember that Bill Bell played this bore.

iiipopes wrote:Obviously, most people will want a larger bore instrument, though not necessarily a larger bell, as they progress.

How come?

Given that there are people (as you mention) who stick with the smaller bore, what's different about them?

Would someone at a less advanced level of progress also be as well served with a larger bore, or is it better to start small?

I think I have a dim grasp of the difference, but after you started that comment with "Obviously", I'm thinking maybe it would be easy enough for the knowledgeable folks here to spell out some of this obvious stuff about this basic parameter of tuba design.

Perhaps I should not have said, "obviously." All else being equal, usually a smaller bore reinforces the overtones and helps with slotting and intonation, and usually a larger bore reinforces the fundamental but may not lock in immediately on slotting. Since in high school the bottom line (pun intended) is intonation and blend, horns like the King usually work better for developing students that may still have a way to go with their embouchure. Just as importantly, and this is another usually, a smaller bore takes less air than a larger bore. High school students are still growing, and this includes the lungs, so you don't want a horn that he's always out of breath playing, fighting to get notes, and getting discouraged.

I say usually, because all else is definitely not equal. There are a lot of variables, including the mouthpiece, the length and taper of the leadpipe, the amount of cylindrical tubing in the valve block before the bugle and bell, the angle and wrap of the tubing, the metal itself (or fiberglass) including its composition and thickness, the taper of the bugle and the size and flare of the bell, etc., ad infinitum ad nauseum.

As he grows and approaches physical maturity, and assuming he wants to continue with playing after high school, then a combination of his skills, playing preferences, budget, availability, college and other factors will determine where he wants to go next and what instrument he will get next. Yes, some prefer to stay with the smaller bore. Bill Bell played a king or other tubas with the same bore. Others play differently. Mel Culbertson plays the largest tuba B&S makes. At last count, even including Besson once they (hopefully) come out of receivership, there were at least 35 companies making tubas by brand name, and several factories besides that making tubas for a variety of store names.

Finally, don't limit yourself or him to one horn. Play as many as you can, even if you have to drive some to other regional music stores or private sales. If you can, take someone with you to be objective about both him and the horn. Ask his band director what he prefers and advice on particular instruments. Have fun! Good luck!

bloke wrote:Comparing two specific models of good, reliable 4V BBb 4/4 size tubas in the same price range... I think if I had to choose between a detachable upright bell 4V King and an old 4-rotor Schneider/B&S/Weltklang for the same $$$$ and in the same mechanical/cosmetic condition, I'd pick the East German rotary.

I would agree. But it's a big "if".

Rick "who hasn't seen many of those old B&S Bb tubas at all, much less in usable condition, and even then rarely at this price point" Denney

iiipopes wrote:High school students are still growing, and this includes the lungs, so you don't want a horn that he's always out of breath playing, fighting to get notes, and getting discouraged.

My little boy, stand 6'+ and weighs in over 160 pounds. He's already in a 12 1/2 shoe. THe wife and I hope he tapers off soon. When he started in 6th grade the middle school band teacher took him to one of the high school teachers who is a tubist. He took him on for a few months with his high school tuba players in an after school practice session. Even then that guy recommended that I get him nothing smaller than a 4/4 and maybe even a 6/4.

I've started some strong conversations here on the thought of 3 valves vs 4, and upright valves vs front facing. I would say that I also thought that a larger bore was more desirable, but that goes on the guy principle that if some is good...then more is better. Wadda I know, I joined the Marines.

Anyway..beyond the assistance and recommendations here I contacted Mark Thiele, who has started as my sons private instructor. He recommended that I see if I can arrange to bring the tuba in for him to evaluate. I am going to try that if we like what we see this Friday when we go to the "shop".

This will be the first attempt to see and try out a tuba before buying one (some will remember I got a Conn 2xJ - 1920 on ebay a couple of years ago). Will try and not get too excited and buy it outright. Am gonna try and wait until the Ft Myer tuba/euphonium event in late Jan and see what is there as well.

Oh. Well, then, that's a whole 'nuther kettle of fish!

The King is still a good instrument for high school, for the reasons indicated. But for him, it seems, the whole world is his oyster! If he doesn't play football, I'd love to see him in an old Martin Mammoth sousaphone: largest of bores, 32 inch bell!!

But seriously, at this point a 4/4 with a bore in the range of .750 would be alright. I still wouldn't go too large, because in spite of his size, he still needs more time to completely develop an embouchure, and a horn with good, tight slotting is still desirable above a kaisertuba or, as the abbreviation is, BAT.

In my opinion it would be good to have your son's private instructor look any tuba you are thinking about for your son.

You and your son should take a drive up I-95 to the Baltimore Brass Company so he can try tubas of many makes (they are open Saturdays). Dave Fedderly and his staff are knowlegable, nice people and very honest (also, Albert is an excellent instrument repairman). Check out his web site for directions, hours of operation and a list of tubas and prices.

I think that the King is generally a good tuba. However, the question is: is that specific King a good tuba? The other question is if there is another type of tuba in your price range that would be better for your son.

best of luck,
Mark

iiipopes wrote: If he doesn't play football, I'd love to see him in an old Martin Mammoth sousaphone: largest of bores, 32 inch bell!!

While he likes playing flag and touch football, he's not followed his old man into a fierce love of tackle football ( I was only 4'11" in high school - and had to cease playing there as a sophomore). Perhaps he won't develop my 6 flattening disks as a result.
Although a Martin Mamouth could go a long way in his spinal devolvement.

He does want to go to Ohio State and dot the I in script Ohio.

I absolutely agree that his private instructor should be consulted. Maybe the instructor has time to road trip with you to look at horns?

Dot the I...

Reminds me when I marched at Mizzou for a year. Then, long ago, the band got to sit beyond the end zone instead of being forced into the stands. I caught a field goal once! Great times!

Unfortunately - with Christmas and New Years (and probably job) Mark isn't available right now. Will try and arrange to "borrow" it by next lesson for a personal review and listening to Michael play it.

Again, we are looking to go to Ft. Lee late Jan where there will be a tuba/euph event and (I'm told) quite a few vendors.