Finding the right Eb tuba

[imperialbari]

A player, who has been around on diverse brasses like myself, has asked about advise while hunting for an Eb tuba. The requirements don’t match up into any model known by me. So I dare to relay the question to this forum:

Wanted features:

American sound, not to light, preferably a bit “CC-ishâ€

[Kevin Hendrick]

The Yamaha YEB-321s is the closest instrument to the mentioned requirements that comes to mind. It's a great all-around horn...

FWIW

I used to play a Yamaha YEB-321s and the only problem I had with it was that it had no low E natural.

Are the false tones (particularly the low E natural) usable?

[iiipopes]

Before WWII, King and Conn had larger bore models with your choice of either front or top valves. Some of them were called "Monster" tubas, and there were other names. They show up quite frequently from top restorer's workshops to eBay scrap. If you decide on one of these, and it has not been restored, plan on spending some on getting it playable.

[cjk]

Given that desirable intonation was one of the criteria put forth by Klaus, I would not bother with American made monster EEb instruments. I've never played a monster King, but the Conns and Yorks have had challenging scales.

[MaryAnn]

yeah I playtested a York Monster once...it had that CC-ish sound but the low octave was more of a 9th. I can't imagine someone wanting to deal with that. Most cheap alto horns have that same characteristic, too.

I have a little 3/4 Eb that has a surprisingly deep sound in the low range, but it has the same type of problem: low range flat, high range sharp.

Is this just an Eb thing, the intonation? or is it a "cheap Eb" or "early Eb" thing? (like the rotary F "thing" of stuffy low notes, that still do not center on their own even if one overcomes the embouchure stiffness that is part of the problem.)

Modern french horn manufacturers don't seem to have these intense intonation problems any more; I'm sure some of the earlier ones did, and yes of course the right hand is used to fix intonation tendencies....but they are nowhere near as bad as what I encounter on a regular basis with modern tubas. I wonder why tuba makers won't do the science to improve their designs?

MA

[Donn]

I wonder why tuba makers won't do the science to improve their designs?

If York were still in business, I'm sure they would be out rounding up their old tubas and making them play in tune, but sadly they're gone, and Conn and King certainly no longer have that kind of focus on quality if they ever did.

Are current models from Besson, Willson, Yamaha et al. still plagued with serious intonation problems?

[windshieldbug]

I wonder if the intonation problems experienced are caused by using modern mouthpieces, much larger than originally intended on the old tubas

My experience exactly; modern mouthpieces do not "play well with others" when the "others" are older horns that are substantially original

[Mark E. Chachich]

I agree with Jonathan and "Windshieldbug" about the mouthpiece size on the E flat. I use an old York Monster E flat for my bass tuba. The mouthpiece that I use is a Bach 25 and I have no problems with intonation, any range (including low) or even tone in all registers.

In my experience a large mouthpiece makes this tuba stuffy in the low range, uneven sounding between ranges and somewhat strange in intonation.

It is my opinion that York (and other old E flats like Holton, Conn, Besson, etc...) were made with care and still are excellent and useable E flat tubas.

best,
Mark

[imperialbari]

Those tiny old Eb tuba mouthpieces will tend to minimize (but not eliminate) the intonation problems of some of those old Eb tubas...but then one must live with "the downside", which is the resulting sound of those tiny old mouthpieces...

Even if brasses in general were much louder 100 years ago than 200 years ago, I, like Joe, am a bit doubtful about the proportions of the old American Monster Eb tubas from the ever so reputable makers of York, King, and Conn.

Their bore is small (I think 0.656 has been mentioned as a typical bore in an earlier thread). The leadpipe was set up for mouthpieces not much larger than a modern bass trombone mouthpiece. If played moderately by somebody able to play tubas through small mouthpieces, I am sure that the monsters will sound mellow and be quite manageable in intonation.

But they hardly would deliver the American CC-ish sound wanted by the person from whom I relayed the original question.

...speaking of which: Is anyone interested in a Wick #4 gold tuba mouthpiece with an "English" (ie. "small") shank for $50 + postage?

This touches in on two matters related to one of my own instruments: the 1870 Besson (of course non-comp) 3+1 Eb tuba with the 4th valve in the leadpipe.

The original mouthpiece is in a state, where a cleaning might equal destruction, as it is very corroded on the rim and in the cup.

I tried the tuba with my almost similarly sized Yeo signature bassbone/euph mouthpiece and didn’t like the sound. I felt, that my tuba embouchure could not get space enough to work properly.

Hence I ordered a Denis Wick #1 non-L, but haven’t seen it arrive yet. Is the distribution of Boosey&Hawkes/Besson/or-whatever-current-successor broken down totally?

With reference to other postings on this thread: I find, that my old 1928 and 1929 Conn 40K and 26K work well with a large mouthpiece like my PT-50. But then both these Conn models in BBb and Eb respectively share large bits, identical necks/neck receivers, and have relevant bore sizes of 0.732 and 0.691.

Klaus

[iiipopes]

Re: Wick 1 tuba mouthpiece:
Dennis Wick now has set up his own website to take care of such: http://www.deniswick.com

Make sure you spell Denis with only one "n."

If you have a problem, email where you ordered it from that they need to get it directly from Denis now, and cc the email to Denis at the email address on the website.

BTW I use a Wick 1 on my 1971 Besson 3-valve BBb comp, and even though it is not as old as some of the other tubas talked about on this thread, I have tried it with some other mouthpieces and agree that a tuba works best with a mouthpiece designed for it or in conjunction with its original manufacture.

[iiipopes]

Mark Carter, "Mr. Tuba," is now marketing his own tubas made for him by Meinl-Weston. He has 2 Eb models, a 4-valve comp and a 5-valve rotary, and a compact CC that definitely bear looking at. There are good reviews of the instruments on TubeNet. He also has a BBb 4-valve comp that will definitely get some more play now that Besson is in limbo.

[tuba kitchen]

I play an old YEB321 with an added thumb ring on the first valve slide to help with intonation. the low E i play open with no problems. i find the newer yamahas a bit "stiff": difficult to adapt to one's personal sound.

i tried a willson Eb and found it very nice: CCish, nice big open sound, good intonation, but expensive!

[Steve Inman]

I used to play a Yamaha YEB-321s and the only problem I had with it was that it had no low E natural. Other than that, the hand position was very comfortable, intonation and consistency was a bit quirky, it hurt my back to play it (I'm 6'2"). After I got used to it, it was a fun horn to play.

Then, there are a few YEB-381 models out there. One comes up every once in a while. It's the YEB-321 with a DEPENDENT, 5th rotary valve inserted into the 4th valve slide. This 5th valve is a flat half step from the factory, but can be converted to a flat whole step by contacting Lee Stofer, who has recently developed a design to accomplish this.

Now ... if there were a way to equip this horn with an optional (swappable) 18-19" bell, that would be quite fun! As it is, it does have a very nice sound -- more "potent" than the 15" bell would suggest, IMO.

Cheers,

[tubatooter1940]

I lucked up on my 1940 King Eb recording bass. Its the right horn for me. It's old and beat up and so am I.