Smaller "Golden Age" American horns?

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:56 pm

I, for one, would include the King 1240 & 1241 tubas, and 1250 sousaphone, made from the beginning until purchased by UMI @ 1981. Also add the "Bill Bell" models to this list. Reynolds the same, from when he left H. N. White, and kind of "taking the design with him," even through the time he didn't own the company, and including when he joined with Olds until their demise @ 1979.

The only thing left over from this era is 1) the current King 1240 & 1241, 2) the Conn CC, which is a chopped 1240 with a Conn #10 bore 4th valve and a .750 thumb trigger, and 3) the cyborg fiberglass sousaphone, which may not even be fiberglass, but some other resin/composite at this point, which is made the same way, even with rumours of it actually being subcontracted to Jupiter (compare specs), and the final decal, whether Conn, King, or Holton, is affixed to the bell upon shipment.

I know Conn made tubas with smaller bores, but I am not familiar with them as with the King & Reynolds. Please post to expand my knowledge of them. Also, I don't believe Martin ever made a "small" tuba. Again, please post.

twoconnguy · Post by **twoconnguy** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:12 pm

I played last night, with a guy in a community band that has a 4 valve, front action, 3/4 Martin, that he said was from the 20's.... a real sweet horn IMHO.

Michael Woods · Post by **Michael Woods** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:12 pm

Remeber that a biggger horn does not equal greater dynamic volume.

That is like saying because a trumpet is smaller than a tuba, a trumpet can not play louder than a tuba.

BATS DO NOT EQUAL LOUDER DYNAMICS, just a different sound.

Michael Woods · Post by **Michael Woods** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:24 pm

Remeber that a biggger horn does not equal greater dynamic volume.

That is like saying because a trumpet is smaller than a tuba, a trumpet can not play louder than a tuba.

BATS DO NOT EQUAL LOUDER DYNAMICS, just a different sound.

Dan Satterwhite · Post by **Dan Satterwhite** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:17 pm

I am also curious whether there are any WELL CONSTRUCTED modern versions that can successfully AND consistently fulfill the described attributes?

Yamaha had a prototype of Jim Self's 4/4 York tuba making the rounds a couple of years ago. Some friends of mine in NY tried it at the Yamaha Pro Shop, and, if I remember correctly, were underwhelmed. Being a Yamaha pro model, I'm sure it's well-constructed, at least.

Kalison has a new model which I believe is based on an old 4/4 York owned by Jim Akins of the Columbus Symphony. Very well constructed...more like a Nirschl than previous Kalison models, and a very clear, robust sound.

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:37 pm

Michael Woods wrote:Remeber that a biggger horn does not equal greater dynamic volume.

That is like saying because a trumpet is smaller than a tuba, a trumpet can not play louder than a tuba.

BATS DO NOT EQUAL LOUDER DYNAMICS, just a different sound.

I guess this is a tangential in a way to the topic, but is this a fairly clear cut fact, or is it more complicated than that? I don't find the trumpet analogy very helpful, since they aren't used for the same thing. I have three tubas, and on any note below the staff, their respective volumes do in fact correlate with body size. And valve bore width, and final bell flare width - can't really say for sure which it is, probably all of the above in some way.

As for American tubas, I get the impression of relatively small valve bores, with large bodies and wide bell flares. Many Monsters and Giants, but no big bores. Does the valve bore size affect tone more than volume, within the common .687 to .840 range? Was that what you were saying?

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:38 pm

It's not just all about dynamic level. As we all know, the difference between small - medium - large bores also includes tuning issues, intonation issues, tone - or rather overtone issues, even weight issues. It is as much about the character of the smaller bores, which may go to perceived dynamics as the blend with other instruments is different, as much as the absolute dynamics.

Chuck Jackson · Post by **Chuck Jackson** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:55 pm

I think that the older King 4 rotary models are prized for a good sound. I have watched the NYPO Young Peoples Concerts on DVD and can say the Bell sounded wonderful on his and Joe Novotny sounded as big as any BAT on his Meinl Bell Model. I think that it is more apples and oranges, either one of those men would have sounded good on a BAT, but chose a smaller instrument because that was the horn that was prevelant. If memory serves me correct, Roger Bobo did most of his orchestral and recording work on a 184CC and sounded magnificent, hardly equipment that is standard in today's orchestras.

Tastes change, in today's current arms race it seems bigger is better because players equate a BAT with Arnold Jacobs. And that inevitably equates, falsely I argue, with a bigger, fatter sound. If Mr. Jacobs had played a King 4V CC, he would have sounded just the same. I bet there are plenty of his students who at one time or another heard him pick up a totally foreign instrument and get that big, velvety sound out of it. I think he played the Yorks because he was comfortable with them. Too bad the horn has taken on such a mystique. Most tuba players would sound like themselves on one. Think about it.

Chuck

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:18 am

DP wrote:um....what is "relatively small"? Relative to what?

Relative to other tubas, especially of similar size. I think .687 was a fairly normal valve section bore diameter for a big American BBb tuba.

twoconnguy · Post by **twoconnguy** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:44 pm

Note to Allthumbs: That Martin was silver, with bell up, somewhat compact wrap and appeared to have the typical wide "American" bell flare on it. I didn't have much extra time to talk to the owner, but he said he'd had for about 20 years, and that it had been refurbed at Dillon's before he bought it.