Historical Baritone vs. Euphonium

[Tubageek]

As I was leaving work today (I work as a woodwind repairman in a music store) I overheard the brass technician telling one of our customers the "true" difference between a baritone and a euphonium. The customer was originally told that the number of valves distinguishes a baritone from a euphonium, but the brass technician claimed that it was the bore size. Yes, this is how the British Brass Band tradition defines those two instruments, but what do I tell the parent who comes in asking me to look at their four valved, conical bore "baritone"? So I was wondering why there is such a confusion about the issue, and this is the best I can come up with: (Please inform me of any errors I have made)

The American baritone and the English euphonium were developed roughly at the same time (for purposes of discussion, at any rate) and were roughly the same instrument. Yes, the valve and bell configurations were often different, but these were instruments that played in the same key with similar bore designs. The English also had an instrument they called a baritone, but their baritone had a smaller, more cylindrical bore (in bold because it is a correction) than their euphonium, despite the fact that it played in the same key. (Am I correct in thinking that the English baritone's American counterpart was the tenor horn?) At some point, probably in the '50s and '60s (?) American baritone soloists began using English euphoniums. Instead of sticking to one nomenclature, junior high and high school bands stuck with the old American labels, and colleges and universities adopted the English names. Because of this, several people became confused, and invented many different "differences" between the baritone and euphonium. (Baritone has three valves, euph four, a baritone has a front bell, euph bell-up, etc.) Now no one can actually tell the difference between the two.

Why do I bring this up? I'd like some definition for these two terms. Using the brass band definitions is great if you're talking to college educated players, but trying to correct someone who calls an English euphonium a baritone strikes me as pretentious at best. However, using both terms seems silly, unless I have a reason. Is the explanation I gave close enough to the truth where I can tell people this when they become confused?

Scott

[trseaman]

I liked the description from this webpage...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphonium

Cheers!

[JTJ]

There were divergent paths, American and English. The Brits won the name game because they had the better instruments. Americans now play euphoniums, rather than the front valve, medium bore American baritones. And using the word baritone has become a mark of ignorance, or defiance, unless talking about the English baritone.

John

[Lew]

... The English also had an instrument they called a baritone, but their baritone had a smaller, more conical bore than their euphonium, despite the fact that it played in the same key. (Am I correct in thinking that the English baritone's American counterpart was the tenor horn?) At some point, probably in the '50s and '60s (?) American baritone soloists began using English euphoniums. Instead of sticking to one nomenclature, junior high and high school bands stuck with the old American labels, and colleges and universities adopted the English names. Because of this, several people became confused, and invented many different "differences" between the baritone and euphonium. (Baritone has three valves, euph four, a baritone has a front bell, euph bell-up, etc.) Now no one can actually tell the difference between the two.

...

Scott

Actually, the English Baritone has a more cylindrical bore, while the euphonium is more conical. It is similar to the difference between a trumpet and a cornet, or fluegelhorn, with the trumpet being analogous to the baritone and the euphonium the cornet or flugel.

Yes, American Bb tenor horns were the equivalent of the English baritones. This is even more confusing because the English Tenor horns are in Eb, like what American's call alto horns. Read Dave Werden's discussion of this for what is probably the best overview of this topic that I have read, found here: http://www.dwerden.com/eu-articles-bareuph.cfm

[iiipopes]

I agree with bloke, especially since I have added to the discussion in the past. Please, it's been hashed, and let it be.

[Chuck(G)]

I agree with bloke, especially since I have added to the discussion in the past. Please, it's been hashed, and let it be.

Ditto. FWIW, I have examples of American "baritones" that every bit as much (or more) taper than a Besson New Standard euphonium

Just one word of caution. If you're invited to play "baritone" in a British Brass Band, it's probably not a good idea to bring your old Conn "American" baritone. "Baritone" in the brass band sense has a very specific meaning.

[Tubageek]

Here's the problem. All of you are limiting yourself to the British brass band definitions. Despite the fact that I mistyped in my original post, I am perfectly aware of what the difference is between an English euphonium and an English baritone. (Not trying to be rude, just trying to avoid more misunderstandings.) I am not trying to properly define the three valved instruments called "baritones" by those who use them in middle schools as either "baritones" or "euphoniums". All I am trying to do, all I ever tried to do, (and I humbly apologize for not making this clear) was try to find out WHY the nomenclature is such a mess. If I know why, I can explain the difference more effectively without sounding pretentious. Can anyone support or refute any of the historical assumptions I made in my original post?

Thanks,
Scott

[windshieldbug]

Scott,
From a historical sense, I think you're right on. However, the nomenclature takes on a life of it's own, and means too many things to too many people. If you're really a masochist, try defining the modern trumpet as a long cornet, despite "traditional" mouthpiece shank sizes, etc. The mouthpiece inner size, throat, horn bore and sound difference are now insignificant (Bb trumpet/Cornet) when compared to actual traditional, octave-lower, much more cylindrical trumpets. But there, too, you're just opening a can of worms...

[Chuck(G)]

The terminology of low brass is a mess and pretty much has always been thus.

Consider the lowly Eb Alto Horn--uh, I mean the British tenorhorn. No--wait, the American tenor horn is in Bb--but is called a "baritone horn" in the UK. But the US baritone horn is really a kind of euphonium, unless one uses the 19th century US term of "bass" (or French "basse") to describe it. But in the UK, a "bass" tuba is one in Eb, which is really a contrabass instrument...

[Dan Schultz]

Well... okay then.

This is a baritone:


And this is a euphonium:


Good enough?

[imperialbari]

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/jul2001 ... 61604.html

[windshieldbug]

Well... okay then.
Good enough?

This Is your baritone:


... And this Is your baritone on drugs:


Any questions?

[GC]

It seems to me that the baritone is really just a tightly-wrapped upright valve trombone.

[Chuck(G)]

It seems to me that the baritone is really just a tightly-wrapped upright valve trombone.

Nope an upright valve trombone is much skinnier (and plays further out of tune):



The best of a miserable lot--a Conn 90G.

[jmh3412]

Interesting discussion. I would also contend that the instruments serve very different functions within the traditional brass band.

The Euphonium is usually likened to the 'cello because of its role as a solo instrument as well as bass reinforcement.

The baritone on the other hand is much more an ensemble instrument, whose bore is better suiited to the higher "filler "parts.

The inclusion of an extra 4th valve really does confuse the issue as the difference lies in tonal quality rather than range.

[Donn]

The terminology of low brass is a mess and pretty much has always been thus.

Consider the lowly Eb Alto Horn--uh, I mean the British tenorhorn. No--wait, the American tenor horn is in Bb--but is called a "baritone horn" in the UK. But the US baritone horn is really a kind of euphonium, unless one uses the 19th century US term of "bass" (or French "basse") to describe it. But in the UK, a "bass" tuba is one in Eb, which is really a contrabass instrument...

I think in line with the general tradition of Italian as the international language of music, the tuba family should be known by their Italian names. Which fortunately are most regular and sensible. From flugelhorn to euphonium, we have flicorno soprano, flicorno contralto, flicorno tenore, flicorno baritono and flicorno basso.

The flicorno basso is the euphonium, and the great thing about this taxonomy is that there are two slots left in the same Bb rank, flicorno tenore and flicorno baritono. I'm pretty sure the tenore is the English baritone, and I suspect the flicorno baritono could be either or neither, but since we know there are more than two bore sizes involved here, obviously three names are better than two.

[Chuck(G)]

The flicorno basso is the euphonium, and the great thing about this taxonomy is that there are two slots left in the same Bb rank, .

...except that modern usage tends to be "eufonio":

http://www.raffaeleinghilterra.it/lista ... ategoria=2

It's still a mess:

http://www.answers.com/topic/saxhorn

...says that the "flicorno basso" is the Eb or F tuba.

Maybe we should just invent some new names "frelp", "skeert", "boofoo", etc...

[Dan Schultz]

What's the difference between a baritone/euphonium player and a king-sized pizza?


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. you can feed a family of four with a king-sized pizza

[Albertibass]

from what ive been told,
baritones are cylindrical like, in that they have a direct sound closer to a trumpet sound.

euphoniums are conical (or more so than the baritone)..euphonium was invented to balance out the sound of the horns.

and i believe that Euphonium comes from a latin word for sweet sounding

[Chuck(G)]

and i believe that Euphonium comes from a latin word for sweet sounding

Nope, it's really a macaronism; Greek eu- and phonos, for "well" and "sound", but with a Latin -ium ending.

"pulmentum farina, caseo, botiro compaginatum, grossum, rude, et rusticanum" Not pizza, Dan, but macaroni...