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Heard an excellent performance of Handel's "Samson" by the UNT Baroque Orchestra & others last night. The orchestra, conductor, soloists, choir--everyone--was superb.

The period wind instruments were obviously challenging though, even for the talented musicians performing last night. I have heard one of the brass players many times over the years, and never have I heard him even crack a note, much less miss one. He didn't crack any last night either, but it didn't sound effortless like it always does on his modern instrument. I'm just glad nobody ever invented a natural tuba. I guess it would have looked like a valveless helicon and the player would have had to stick his foot in the bell to bend the pitch. Clown shoes might have worked.

Tubas weren't around yet. You won't find tubas in Baroque music. Tubas have had valves all through their history, since the 1835 patent in Berlin, Germany, which is where we mark the beginning of the tuba.

Yes, metalworking techniques just weren't there yet for large instruments in the Baroque period as I understand it. What I mean is that I'm glad I'll never be tempted to play a natural tuba in a period piece since they didn't exist and parts weren't written for them. I don't think it would have been satisfying.

bloke wrote:' hate to disappoint, Michael...

... and F horns are just as long as F tubas!

The straight one is called tuba

The round one is called cornu (forefather of the french horn)

(Detail of Trajan's column, 113 A.D.
17 centuries and one year before Sax was even born.....)

MichaelDenney wrote:........
He didn't crack any last night either, but it didn't sound effortless like it always does on his modern instrument. I'm just glad nobody ever invented a natural tuba. .......

For me that's the essence of why I love these instruments. Modern winds are developed to sound as even and effortless as possible to a point that especially early music starts to sound completely bland and boring. Don't forget that music like this was written at the cutting edge of what was possible on those instruments.

I like to hear someone struggling with the material and emerging victorious at the end more than hearing a perfect rendition of every dot of ink on the page.

bloke wrote:' hate to disappoint, Michael...

I thought that the picture was of a Buccine , a roman marching trumpet ( or tuba in Latin) as Used by Rephigi in the lower brass parts of the last movement of "Pines Of Rome" Quasi Buccine ( In a raw blaring sound) to quote the parts..awesome

corbasse wrote: The straight one is called tuba

...and don't you forget it!

Wouldn't an alphorn be the closest thing to a "natural" tuba?

Kevin Miller wrote:Wouldn't an alphorn be the closest thing to a "natural" tuba?

As far as I know, yes, it would (the one I've played would be a natural F tuba). And we think our BATs are unwieldy!

Kevin Hendrick wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:Wouldn't an alphorn be the closest thing to a "natural" tuba?

As far as I know, yes, it would (the one I've played would be a natural F tuba). And we think our BATs are unwieldy!

Only, traditional alphorns are in F sharp

Unwieldy? Try getting your hands on a Bb basso natural horn.
Same length as a BBb contrabass tuba, but with a 0.45'' bore (the straight tubing) and a mouthpiece with a 0.70'' diameter, 0.15'' wide rim and no thoat

Consider that the alphorn is typically played in the alto range (harmonics have to be close enough together to be useful). A natural tuba to be as useful in the contrabass range, at least to play the I-IV-V-ii type of alternating bass lines for a polka band, might need, what, over a hundred feet of length?

... something like this?

The interesting thing about playing alphorn (friend of mine has a couple) is that the sound is so....far away....from your chops. And, you just have to have an ear to play one of those. Of course, you have to have an ear to play French horn, too, although I hear many "playing" it who don't.

MA

Chuck(G) wrote:Consider that the alphorn is typically played in the alto range (harmonics have to be close enough together to be useful). A natural tuba to be as useful in the contrabass range, at least to play the I-IV-V-ii type of alternating bass lines for a polka band, might need, what, over a hundred feet of length?

Hmmm. With all 4 valves down on a BBb you can already play diatonicaly on the staff. That's (very) roughly 32 foot C.
Add an octave and basically you're there. That's 64 feet.

Of course, the IV (11 th harmonic) is horribly out of tune. For better tuning you could use hamonic 21 instead, adding another octave, (leaving absolutely no chance of hitting the right note ).
That makes 128 feet C, or about 144 feet if you prefer Bb.

so . . . tubas are unnatural?

thought so.

bloke wrote: The comment earlier about Alphorns being built in F# may be true, and may also be true only in an A=440 world.

OK, I'll restate my comment:
Alphorns are traditionally 11 feet long. (give or take a few inches)

(Just enough length of giving them a harmonic series based on f# at a=440)

bloke wrote: As an example, I have an old fancy Bohemian 4-rotor Bb baritone that is "high pitch"...which means that (in A=440 "language") it is pitched squarely in B natural.

I have one of these too, but a 3 valve model. What is it good for!?!? Maybe I could make a C baritone out of it to make a CC tuba player happy?

jacobg wrote:

bloke wrote: As an example, I have an old fancy Bohemian 4-rotor Bb baritone that is "high pitch"...which means that (in A=440 "language") it is pitched squarely in B natural.

I have one of these too, but a 3 valve model. What is it good for!?!? Maybe I could make a C baritone out of it to make a CC tuba player happy?

If it's worth keeping original, it's always easy to ADD tubing by making intermediate slides within slides and go with Bb. The US went from high pitch to low pitch around the turn of the 20th century, and may horns came with little 'adaptors', so that they could play either. Often, the tuning slide by itself wasn't long enough on it's own so that you couldn't pull it far enough out. The valve slides have to come out a little, too. US horns often would come with a mark scribed on the slide to show you how far, if you were playing in low pitch.

Then again, if it doesn't mean that much, you need to cut ALL the slides to make it work in C...

Please do not omit a very natural tuba, the "tummy tuba".
Apply lips to baby's stomach. Blow bronx cheer. Be rewarded by shrieks and giggles.