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tuba part?

I don't believe so.

Cimbasso part. Playable on tuba, if you want Verdi to turn over in his grave.

Yes, a good part but take an F tuba to play it on,not the big gear.Never understood the Cimbasso craze, it died out because it was crap. Driven by conductors rather than players I suspect.
Bilmac

bilmac wrote:Never understood the Cimbasso craze, it died out because it was crap. Driven by conductors rather than players I suspect.

Uh huh.

Never understood the Cimbasso craze, it died out because it was crap.

Well, it's back. Some places, it never "died."

from
LA STRUTTURA DELL’OPERA E L’ORGANICO STRUMENTALE
a cura di
Enrico M. Ferrando

La Traviata uses the customary instrumentation for the Italian opera orchestras of the period. The woodwinds are "a due", with one of the flutes alternating piccolo. The family of the brass also includes the "cimbassoâ€

Depending on what trombone section you're accustomed to, perhaps it is a good thing NOT to blend with them...





***Disclaimer: Intended to be a comical statement...not intended to raise controversy...***

Remember the Cimbasso was intended to blend with 19th Century Italian trombones. A modern American or British orchestra doen't use instruments anything like their Italian precedessors.The balance between a modern trombone section with their big instruments and a cimbasso, even a decent modern one, can't be that good. Granted , if the trombone section play a more period style of instrument, there might be case for bringing out a cimbasso but that risks starting a landslide--what do the trumpets and horns do?
A good F stands a a better chance than anything of making a job of it.Remember if you really want to embrace authenticity you should wash your clothes in a zinc bucket or better still ,on a rock rather than in a washing machine.Which gets the job done better?It's a no brainer!

Bilmac

To my understanding, a cimbasso is nothing but a valve trombone. (Don´t give me the bore or bell size thing now. According to that, either the 2145 or the 2165 would have to be called something other than "Tuba")
Unlike the valve trombone in Bb, the larger ones in F or lower (aka "Cimbasso") have bent-down machinery for more convenient use.
I´d believe it´s played by tubists most of the time simply because they are supposed to be the guys more comfortable with a valved brass instrument in that range than any other musician in the orchestra.

Maybe it would be a better idea to play the cimbasso part on a plain (F) bass trombone rather than the tuba, in case nobody owns a cimbasso. The difference between valve and slide trombone should be much smaller than the one between trombone and tuba as far as "Werktreue" is concerned.
I bet even the common modern bass trombone with F attachment will produce sufficient breadth of sound to replace cimbassi used around 150-100 years ago, so you might even get away with that.

(Edit, after reading bilmac´s post): I´d say using an instrument from the TROMBONE rather than the HORN family in the intended key is the least amount of reverence one should be willing to grant to the intentions of a composer. At least if such instrument happens to be collecting dust on someone´s attic.

I'm trying to get a few more services out of my orchestra. work with me people...

Mike, it's a good part (for an opera). There's a big lick at the opening but only one or two more, still a satisfying part to play. Lots of rests though, bring a book to rehearsals. Oops, I'm in the wrong century... bring your ipod.

I should have a photocopy of the part; send me a pm if you are interested and I'll look for it.

Hans--it's still a zinc bucket, in more ways than one.
Bilmac

bilmac wrote:Hans--it's still a zinc bucket, in more ways than one.

Count me in as a willing participant of the "zinc bucket brigade" then.

-I like getting to temporarily play a more substantial role in the trombone section (by playing the cimbasso).

-I like getting to play some different repertoire, and be challenged by wearing a different musical hat (although the peanut gallery may perceive it as merely a zinc bucket...).

-I like the fact that I'm not actively ignoring the composers' original intent, whether justified by the fact that I'm merely a "tooooba player" (meaning I'm expected to be one-dimensional, or to have slept through college, or too thick to expend any effort on the part at hand), or because I "know better" than the composer himself, or even because I may feel that all historical precedent is "crap".

-I like the extra money (which is paid to me every month, whether I play the cimbasso or not).

A Cimbasso is more than just a valved trombone , Sean O'Neil ( Welsh National Opera) and James Gourlay ( former Zurich Opera) would use a Cimbasso. the Cimbasso instruments have been used in Film Scores ( Most famous one I can think was BeetleJuice and Bram Stokers Dracula ) , to be honest for authenticity it is the instrument to use if playing Italian Opera.

There is a chorus at the end of the 1st Act that is rangy and dangerous. I played this Opera with the Virginia Opera with Peter Mark on a large CC(my only horn at the time) and he demanded that it played so soft as to be virtually inaudible. From that day forward I swore I would use a small horn because 1. It was way easier and 2. It made more sense in the grand scheme of things. I could give a rats *** about period practice/composers intent. If the instrument makes the job easier, I'll play it. Cimbasso will make Traviata a walk in the park. Watch the Final death scene, the rhythm has to be perfect to line up with Alfredo's and Germont's final reconciliation over Violetta's dead body. Consumption was very big in opera. Play cimbasso or at least an F. You will enjoy yourself. BTW, watch the first runs that you play after the Overture, they will make you look stoooooopid if you don't practice them. Lot's of nasty accidentals.

Chuck"who would much rather conduct than play this piece anymore and would request a small horn if available"Jackson

Chuck Jackson wrote:I could give a rats *** about period practice/composers intent.

Atta boy.

MikeMason wrote:I'm trying to get a few more services out of my orchestra. work with me people...

In opera companies that ask for it, and if one is available, it's the tuba player, not a bass trombonist, that plays the cimbasso. It's a very small bore sound. So take a small bore horn. A tubby sounding F or Eb won't cut it. Better a 3/4 CC. Small[er] horn, and small[er] mouthpiece.

I've since been told we usually use a reduced orchestra for opera gigs.But, interesting discussion anyway.If i were to get a chance,would anyone consider renting me a cimbasso? this gig is a long way off(next winter).Just don't want anything sneaking up on me...

I have this one available for rental. I'll PM you the details.

Remember the Cimbasso was intended to blend with 19th Century Italian trombones. A modern American or British orchestra doen't use instruments anything like their Italian precedessors.The balance between a modern trombone section with their big instruments and a cimbasso, even a decent modern one, can't be that good.

The 19th century cimbasso was intended to blend with 19th century trombones. A modern cimbasso, when played well, can achieve a very homogeneous blend with modern trombones. A tuba, of course, can achieve a very different kind of blend with a trombone section, but that is precisely what Verdi (indisputedly on record) wanted to AVOID. He wanted a "choir" similar sounding instruments.


A good F stands a a better chance than anything of making a job of it.
Which gets the job done better? It's a no brainer!

If you HAVE to play tuba on Verdi, then an F does the best job. But, if you want to do it right, then it's a no brainer. Use a cimbasso. BTW, those 4 valve Cerveny or Mirafone "cimbassos" that stick straight out don't work very well, and are a poor substitute for a real modern cimbasso that can be played with a big sound, like modern trombones.