TubeNet

I think I need to play one to have any coherent comment. The proof is in the sound, and, as one teacher remarked to me, "I wouldn't care if the horn I played was paper-thin, needed slide pulling like a trombone, and had to be thrown away every week. If it gives the sound you're looking for, then that's the on you've GOT to have!"

Admittedly, their horns are not the cookie-cutter variety, but what they are searching for with their designs is a better mouse trap. Their unconventional wraps and valve configurations are all in an attempt to make a horn sound or play better than everything else out there. Some players have found that, just as others have found their instruments by other manufacturers. Max and Heinrich don't produce many tubas and spend most of their time making smaller brass instruments that often are modular in design and still are expensive. I haven't met many manufacturers that are as willing to spend so much time on a one-off custom design as these guys are, and if you're willing to part with the cash, they have the time to spend. If you're ever in Bremen, Germany, they invite you to drop by and see their shop and have some coffee.

Suggest you do a search for prior posts about the Theins as there has been much discussion on this topic.

And if your one-off custom Thein "Expensivo-phone" happens to have quirky response or intonation (which many do...), the Theins tape little bits of metal in various places on the instrument. No foolin'.

Who says voodoo and music don't mix?

When I was there last January a client had his F in for a few tweaks and I thought it played ok, nothing spectacular. During our visit last month, I asked if the player liked the changes they made and their tech said "No." He didn't share the specifics but we all should realize that different isn't always better. And that gets said for a variety of topics.

I don't see anything crazy about these tubas. They look ok. The prices are very high. The price listed for the piston valve tuba is € 23,821 for the "export model." That's $28,286.92 in the United States.

Crazy, no. Expensive, yes.

TubaBluba wrote:You can't trust to be sane if they spend $30k on one tuba.

Be glad you don't play string bass.

Donn wrote:

TubaBluba wrote:You can't trust to be sane if they spend $30k on one tuba.

Be glad you don't play string bass.

whachu talkin bout donn?

zoro wrote:Will Yamaha provide the same kind of service as Thein, if something bothers you about their $28,000 Yamayork?

I would hope so!

Ralph

Albertibass wrote:

Donn wrote:

TubaBluba wrote:You can't trust to be sane if they spend $30k on one tuba.

Be glad you don't play string bass.

whachu talkin bout donn?

Probably that a bow alone can run $30k...

Tom wrote:

Albertibass wrote:

Donn wrote: Be glad you don't play string bass.

whachu talkin bout donn?

Probably that a bow alone can run $30k...

ouch............

Tom wrote:Probably that a bow alone can run $30k...

In my experience, 'cellists are nuttier about their bows than bassists. A bassist friend, after having gone through 8 bows by dropping them or sitting on them, went to a fiberglass model and is now happily using a $600 graphite bow. He says it's probably the best bow he's ever owned. After having tried it, I've got to admit that it is very nice indeed.

Chuck(G) wrote:

Tom wrote:Probably that a bow alone can run $30k...

In my experience, 'cellists are nuttier about their bows than bassists. A bassist friend, after having gone through 8 bows by dropping them or sitting on them, went to a fiberglass model and is now happily using a $600 graphite bow. He says it's probably the best bow he's ever owned. After having tried it, I've got to admit that it is very nice indeed.

I think that the secret is having a good idea of what you want, finding it, and then sticking with it. I had played quite a bit of bass trombone by 1987, and knew what I didn't like about the American and Japanese bass trombones I had been playing, so I had done a bit of background work by the time I first visited Max & Heinrich Thein's shop.

I shopped through all the options they offered, and Heinrich and I compiled everything that I wanted in a bass trombone into the order ticket for my instrument. Two months later, I received the very instrument that I had been looking for, and have been quite happy with it for the past 19 years.

If you don't think it is worth it to you to invest in one of their instruments, it probably is not worth it for you. But for me and the vast majority of their other customers, it is worth it.

They may have had some less-than-100% satisfied customers, but so has everyone that has ever opened their doors for business, no matter how good a job one does. I will take the one TubeNet poster to task that suggested that someone may have bought one of their instruments and found it to be worthy of hanging on a restaurant wall - that has never happened, and never will.
One of my customers has recently requested that I order a new bass trombone for him, like mine, except with a "D" slide instead of an "Eb" slide. Heinrich agreed, but wants the serial number from my instrument. Why? Because, they apparently keep a spec. sheet on each individual instrument they build. Show me anyone else who goes to that sort of care. There is one other thing that is not readily apparent, just looking at a Thein instrument, and that is the mettalurgy. They are not made with garden-variety metals. I should be ashamed to admit that I've only thoroughly cleaned my Thein bass trombone three times in the last 19 years, yet there is never any corrosion inside. Why? Because it was made with superior metals, very costly metals, which is why the compression on this instrument is still better than most new bass trombones. I feel that you get what you pay for. True, not everyone needs an instrument like that, but that is an individual decision, and to make blanket condemnations is dangerous.

and...what other manufacturers will sit patiently at the back of a community band rehearsal waiting to hook up with their local distributor?

I was astounded by the level of customer service that the Thein brothers offer. When a section is shopping for instruments, they will pack a box with lots of components and ship it to the ensemble and the players get to test drive the horns for a few weeks in their halls, with everyone in the ensemble present in their usual surroundings available to offer comments. And they do this with no obligation. They may be a small business, but their efforts and reputation are built upon keeping their wide base of customers happy.

BTW, Lee's picture is still on the wall in the foyer amongst many other happy Thein customers.

I forgot to mention some of the innovations that the Theins offer; a remote water key for trombones-a small button triggers a wire that opens the key; a remarkable trombone hand grip that reduces fatigue and potential for injury; although not revolutionary, a screw bell option on trombones that allows the combination of different alloys, bell wreaths, and weightings to achieve the desired sound. As Lee mentioned, the Thein instruments are not for everyone, but no one horn can do it all for every person.

UncleBeer wrote:And if your one-off custom Thein "Expensivo-phone" happens to have quirky response or intonation (which many do...), the Theins tape little bits of metal in various places on the instrument. No foolin'.

Who says voodoo and music don't mix?

Hmm. When I got my Besson, it didn't have the solidity of intonation I thought it should have on a couple of low notes, or the centering on some high notes. So I put some lead tape on the receiver and a thin strip on the little bit of pipe between the valve block and the ferrule joining to the down pipe going to the tuning slide. Solidity increased measurably, and the high note centering absolutely locked in. Don't knock it until you have tried it. My 7th (yes, I said 7th) partials are even in tune: 4th space Gb with 1st and G nat with 2nd. NO LIPPING REQUIRED!

iiipopes wrote:

UncleBeer wrote:And if your one-off custom Thein "Expensivo-phone" happens to have quirky response or intonation (which many do...), the Theins tape little bits of metal in various places on the instrument. No foolin'.

Who says voodoo and music don't mix?

Don't knock it until you have tried it.

Glad it works for you.

A bud of mine had the Theins look over his Thein bass trombone (which is essentially useless as a musical instrument as they initially presented it to him). After taping many little pieces of metal onto his axe, and relieving him of €1200 (just for the many bits of metal and several hours of head-shaking and "hmmm"-ing), there was no appreciable difference in his horn.

They've told him that any more "help" will cost more €€€.

Voodoo with a twist of PT Barnum.

cktuba wrote:And if you find yourself to be in the 1% of dissatisfied customers...

... just call iiipopes!

windshieldbug wrote:

cktuba wrote:And if you find yourself to be in the 1% of dissatisfied customers...

... just call iiipopes!

Thanks. The key is when you run across weak notes, (after all the usual cleaning and adjustments, including corks, alignment, integrity of braces, good compression, etc.,) run your fingers lightly over the tubing from receiver to bell to find if there is any vibration or resonance where it should not be. That's where you put the tape. It is trial and error. Before I found the offending ferrel, I had, in the manner of Curry caps, taped the valve bottom caps. That was too much, and deadened the overall response of the horn.

There are several threads in the trumpet forums especially, and also in Brass-forum.co.uk that talk about this. The bottom line is that added mass damps vibration and changes characteristic. Some players and/or horns need it, others don't, depending on the horn AND the player. I needed a couple of grams of weight, some need the full 1oz Curry caps.

Regarding the bass 'bone that was not improved, for that money I'd make them take it back and make me a new one. There is no excuse for less than perfection when you pay out of this world prices.

There is some recidivism among the usual suspects, usually where there are transitions to and from the valve block, and other similar places. I've read elsewhere that if the small little brace between the first valve slide and the bell on a Bach 37 is not in the right place that trumpet's response will be skewed. Cannonball makes a big deal about their semi-precious stone improving response. My old King Silvertone cornet has a designed-in reinforcement patch on the curve in relatively the same place where the lead pipe enters the valve block. It has great response for what is now considered on the small side of cornet bores (.458). Many years ago there was an article in the Instrumentalist magazine about experiments with Bud Herseth and the placement of the spit key on the main tuning slide and its effect on intonation. Sometimes I'll take my mouthpiece and a small piece of tape and move it around just to see what response characteristics change. With that, I'll say that most of the "megatone" style mouthpieces overdo it. Again, what is usually needed is a couple of grams (the weight of a dime), not a couple of ounces. Oh, by the way, I also put dimes in the bottom valve caps of my cornet for the same reason. Doubled the core and projection. $0.30 compared to $30.00 for the Curry caps! The receiver usually always needs a little help, for it is the weakest link by necessity, getting the buzz through the mouthpiece into the horn. The fact that 99%+ of trumpets have a bell brace attached to the receiver and not the lead pipe is not an accident. A lot of tubas have a solid soldered lead pipe to the bell and nothing on the receiver, when it should be the other way around!

Sorry for getting off thread on a rant. Thanks. I'll do it for free; if you don't like it it's completely removable, just pay the shipping both ways.