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No, I wouldn't try to do surgery on myself, but I'll dress a wound, or "prescribe" myself Tylenol or Sudafed. I do virtually all my own car work (an oil change costs me about $8; JiffyLube is cheaper than that??)

So how do those facts relate to whether I'll try to repair my own horn or hire a pro? Like this: I know there are things I CAN do fairly well (cleaning, corks, springs, simple brace soldering, accessible dents), things I can't do (trombone slide jobs, valve repair) and things I might be able to do, but I know there's a risk I'll mess them up. If I had a tuba that's worth thousands of dollars, I'd be pretty conservative about what I'd attempt myself. But with a baritone I bought for $75 off of Ebay, or even my Conn 10J, I'm prepared to take risks. The value of the instruments certainly doesn't warrant spending a thousand clams or more making repairs. Besides, I'm a natural tinkerer (hope I'm not infringing on Dan's trademark ), and I find this sort of thing interesting.

But the main thing is that it's MY horn. It doesn't belong to posterity (besides, posterity wouldn't want it! ). This may sound stronger than I mean for it to, but if I want to patch it, cut it, or throw off a cliff, it's my choice.
______________________________
Joe Baker, who has cheap cruddy horns, and maintains them the best way he can -- and who just recently had a technician replace the valve guides and iron out the bell, but may soon try to splice in a fourth valve himself!

harold wrote: Jiffylube can do it far better and faster

Really?
My local JL didn't even want to do an advertised transmission fluid service on my car because they have been sued so many times for blowing transmissions.
The general belief among most car guys is that you are tempting fate by going to one of those places where the most unskilled and untrained dropout will remove precious fluids from your car and possibly replace them with the correct type in the correct amount (and possibly replace necessary plugs, seals, gaskets, etc at the right torque.)

Same goes for instrument repair, I guess. Why let someone else possibly screw it up when I know I can screw it up.

Well one reason is that a lot of insight in how something functions and how to improve it come from knowing the equipment intimately. Many bicycle racers benefit from knowing how to fix and repair a bike. For many it is a necessary evil because most don't make enough to fill a coffee can with quarters so they live in their cars race to race and do most of their own wrenching until they hit it big. It also aids in knowing how to diagnose & describe a problem and can help to come up with better parts for better equipment.

Same is true for race cars- be it me racing SCCA or the pros racing in NASCAR, Indy or Formula One. Most drivers want to know how their car and its parts work and the best way to do that is to be able to take it apart and put it back together. Like cyclists when you start out auto racing it is a financial necessity for most to build and fix their vehicles.

As far as Jiffy Lube there are tons of horror stories in regards to oil changes. They routinely strip out the oil plugs - don't tell the owner - result is a steady oil drip which at speed can result in significant oil loss leading to damaged engines

I have a friend whose wife took the 3 month old family van in and they screwed up the oil plug - wife drives vehicle - after 2 hours driving calls up husband to ask how to turn off red light -
long story short - he asks how long the (Low Oil Idiot Light) has been on - answer - a long time - he tells her stay there and goes to the car - bottm line- totally ruined engine - has to sue Jiffy Lube which after 2 years finally pays for new engine.

Finally, seems to me a lot of pros like Warren Deck and Bob Rusk tinkered with their own horns in order to make them better.
Yes I believe in supporting our repair guys but why denigrade others who have the time, talent and inspiration to do their own repairs and maybe even improve their own horns. I mean it's my money and last I checked I lived in the land of the free even if it means free to screw up my own horns.

My 2 cents:-)

Oh and I forgot to mention I've got YORK #3 in the basement and I'm trying decide whether to use a chain saw or a table saw to cut off the bell stack!

harold wrote:What makes us think that we can perform relatively precise alterations to arguably technologically sophisticated machinery with the tools that we might have laying around in the basement?

I'd agree that if your primary interest is having a 'purty tooba' (no solder globs, etc.), then it's prudent to hand over your paycheck to a diligent pro. Otherwise, if appearances aren't everything to you, and if it's not your primary axe (or crucial for next month's performance...), then what's wrong with trying to do some of this ourselves?

What makes us think that we can perform relatively precise alterations to arguably technologically sophisticated machinery with the tools that we might have laying around in the basement?

Brass instrument construction's been going on for more than half a millenium, and with far less adequate tooling than you'd find in Joe 6Pack's basement.

Fields of knowledge become increasingly specialized. We're led to believe that many things are now beyond the common person's comprehension or ability, so we're discouraged to even try.

harold wrote:..... If you look at your horn as a potential investment...

I agree, in principle, with what you are saying. However, only a very small percentage of the instruments out there are what I would consider to be of 'investment quality'. I can relate tuba restoration to automobile restoration inasmuch as the very best 'restorations' usually begin with automobiles that are already in excellent shape.

As far as musical instruments are concerned, I am of the opinion that there is no such thing as a 'restoration'.... unless the horn in question is already in pristine condition. You just can't sand the heck out of a horn, squirt on some lacquer, and call it a restoration.

tofu wrote:me racing SCCA

Whatcha run? AND PROTECT YOUR HEAD!

And as to working on your horn-
I've soldered a bit on horns I didn't use regularly, and even on real ones in an emergency, but if it's your main axe, and you want it done right and you want it to last, take it to an artisan (and god bless that they're still out there!), NOT the brass eqivalent of a JL...

MartyNeilan wrote:

harold wrote: Jiffylube can do it far better and faster

Really?
My local JL didn't even want to do an advertised transmission fluid service on my car because they have been sued so many times for blowing transmissions.
The general belief among most car guys is that you are tempting fate by going to one of those places where the most unskilled and untrained dropout will remove precious fluids from your car and possibly replace them with the correct type in the correct amount (and possibly replace necessary plugs, seals, gaskets, etc at the right torque.).

Marty's right on on this. Beware of Jiffylube. They're living up to only 50% of their name. The 'jiffy' part is correct, but you may not get much 'lube'. My neighbor used a Jiffylube down the street until he found out they only put 3 qts of oil in his engine after an oil change. After running on low oil for while, his car now burns oil all the time. You got to watch them like a hawk! The guys that work in JL's are maybe one step higher than tire jockeys.

harold wrote:Here in the big city it isn't expensive to change your oil, but it is very expensive to dispose of it appropriately.

Can't you dispose of it the same place you bought it? All of the local car parts shops (Autozone, etc.) recycle used oil for free. I just drop it off the last used oil at the same time I buy oil for the next change.

I totally agree! There're children (young kids,babies) drawing silly catoons all over this world. Even untrained adults! HOW DARE THEY DO THAT! I spent years at art school learning all the special things it takes to draw a cartoon. Knowing which pencils and paper to use. They have no right to do that. There should be a law to stop the untrained. WHO DO THEY THINK THEY ARE? I think this is even worse than oiling your own valves. You need a trained expert to squeeezze those few drops in the right place. What if everybody thought they could do it themselves? There could be pools of valve oil and piles of cartoons for people to slip and trip over all over the world. IT HAS TO STOP!

Dale Hale wrote:There're children (young kids,babies) drawing silly catoons all over this world. Even untrained adults! ... I spent years at art school learning all the special things it takes to draw a cartoon. Knowing which pencils and paper to use

That's because you're "slow"...

Huh? I don't understand? Whacha mean? Huh? Me slow? Huh? Me QUICKK! Huhh? Huhhh?

Tubaryan12 wrote:

harold wrote:Here in the big city it isn't expensive to change your oil, but it is very expensive to dispose of it appropriately.

Can't you dispose of it the same place you bought it? All of the local car parts shops *(Autozone, etc.) recycle used oil for free. I just drop it off the last used oil at the same time I buy oil for the next change.

Absolutely! Besides, I own not one but FIVE vehicles. So the choice isn't $8 or $20; it's $40 or $100. I can change the oil in all five, drive to the parts store to dispose of the oil, get home, and shower in about 2 hours. Considering I don't get paid for overtime, $60 (and remember, saved money is tax-free!) is a pretty respectable return on 2 hours work (not to mention it takes me longer than that to drive 5 vehicles, one at a time, to Jiffy-Lube and wait for them to change the oil).
______________________________
Joe Baker, who observes that time may be money, but money is money too!

bloke wrote:

Can't you dispose of it the same place you bought it? All of the local car parts shops *(Autozone, etc.) recycle used oil for free. I just drop it off the last used oil at the same time I buy oil for the next change.

I would expect that not only was this not his main point, but that he was factoring in the value of his time.

No..I was asking only out of curiosity. I was wondering if they did that sort of thing out west.

Like Joe Baker said, "Money is Money" and the reasons I do my own oil changes (which, by the way, I'm changing clothes to do right now on 2 cars) are bacause:

1) I'm a cheap bastard and
2) I don't trust the quick lube guys to do it right (I've heard the same horror stories as others have about those places).

Tubaryan12 wrote:

harold wrote:

Here in the big city it isn't expensive to change your oil, but it is very expensive to dispose of it appropriately.

Can't you dispose of it the same place you bought it? All of the local car parts shops *(Autozone, etc.) recycle used oil for free. I just drop it off the last used oil at the same time I buy oil for the next change.

Well I live in a suburb of Chicago and my local sanitary district takes both oil & anti-freeze for FREE. I don't find it difficult or expensive to dispose of it. I also believe in Illinois it is mandatory for gas stations to take oil from DIY folks for recycling.

For me it's not only cost but time and most importantly doing it right.
With some cars it is actually pretty difficult to get to the filter and it is really easy for somebody trying to do it in a rush to strip the aluminum threads and then you're screwed. From a time perspective I can do 2-3 cars in the time it would take me to take a car to the oil change place and then wait around why they do it.

With 10 cars (6 vintage) I go through a fair amount of oil. The guys at the sanitary district smile when I show up with my 40 gallons plus oil container. I would highly recommend to anybody doing their own work to look into a parking lift for your garage - not only do you double your parking capability but it makes draining the oil and working on your vehicle a snap and these lifts are pretty inexpensive these days.

Dale Hale wrote:I totally agree! There're children (young kids,babies) drawing silly catoons all over this world. Even untrained adults! HOW DARE THEY DO THAT! I spent years at art school learning all the special things it takes to draw a cartoon. Knowing which pencils and paper to use. They have no right to do that. There should be a law to stop the untrained. WHO DO THEY THINK THEY ARE? I think this is even worse than oiling your own valves. You need a trained expert to squeeezze those few drops in the right place. What if everybody thought they could do it themselves? There could be pools of valve oil and piles of cartoons for people to slip and trip over all over the world. IT HAS TO STOP!

Dale, even more shocking I understand that there are people out there amassing collections of historic items, when they aren't even professional museum curators! Can you imagine??
______________________________
Joe Baker -- who, as a computer professional, would LOVE to see all his friends and neighbors doing their own computer maintenance and repairs .

i gave my tuba a bath this past christmas. I have rotors, so i had removed the linkage already, given the tuba a bath, and dried it. i was now placing the linkage back on the horn when a mallet fell off of my shelf in the workshop, and landded right across the linkage completely snapping it in 2. so yeah i flipped out and looked at the clock, realized i had just enough time. Called Fedderly, and he helped me out in the closing hours of work.

I've tried to do repairs on my horn myself.....and yeah im not that trained so i just give it to BBC and they take care of it.

o here is the picture of my rotors.



look close and you'll see the 3rd valve has a brass link and the rest are nickel coated

Albertibass wrote: i was now placing the linkage back on the horn when a mallet fell off of my shelf in the workshop, and landded right across the linkage completely snapping it in 2. ....I've tried to do repairs on my horn myself.....and yeah im not that trained so i just give it to BBC and they take care of it.

Er, no. You damaged it all by yourself.

I know of a brass repairman who routinely does up his own wounds with super glue. I have no doubt that there are those would want to legislate against self-medication, however. Better to be ignorant and helpless I suppose.

If my doctor prescribes a medication, I read everything I'm able to get my hands on about it before I pop the first tablet into my mouth. Often, my doctor and I will disagree and we'll have an intelligent discussion. After all, I have the time to check up on these things--he's seeing a new patient every 15-25 mintues and doesn't.

I'm sure that there are those who would want pharamceutical information placed behind an impenetrable firewall to non-"professionals".

"Keeping the good professionals employed" I have no quibble with--but then, they always seem to have enough business.

But for every "good professional", there are ten hacks that cut bows in half to remove dents, cut braces to cover up assembly mistakes and buff the crap out of everything rather than taking time to scrape off excess solder first.

Those are the guys I want to force into a career change.

That being said, I've wondered why it is that performance people aren't even taught the rudiments about how and why their instrument does what it does. Why is it very few professional pianists could design their own key action? Or why Fletcher and Rossig isn't part of the brass performance cirriculum?

Ignorance must be bliss.

I'm still amazed that anyone (amateur or otherwise) needs a fingering chart for a brass instrument.

Chuck(G) wrote:I'm still amazed that anyone (amateur or otherwise) needs a fingering chart for a brass instrument.

That tells you where to put your hands, silly!

windshieldbug wrote:

Chuck(G) wrote:I'm still amazed that anyone (amateur or otherwise) needs a fingering chart for a brass instrument.

That tells you where to put your hands, silly!

It's for those who have a "tin ear!"