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joshstanman wrote:Does anyone know anything that is just terrible about these horns?

Despite that this question is almost guaranteed to create the shortest thread in Tubenet history, I'll help prevent that by actually providing an answer:

No.

Rick "who has never heard a bad word about the 188, even though some players may prefer some aspect of different instruments more" Denney

I played one out in Austria last summer for about a week (couldn't bring my horn, so I had to borrow one from "a local pro").

The guy was selling his Hirsbrunner and keeping the 188. Had he been selling the 188, it'd have come home with me.

Go for it.

If you haven't tried a Miraphone 1291, try that first, and see which one you prefer.

Buy if you have, go for it. I have never heard anything bad about the 188, but I have seen a lot of people preferring the 1291.

I have owned three of these (188) instruments over a twenty year period. My first was a good used... my second a great used... my third a good new. I currently do not own this model horn because I don't play as much as I used to.

My point...All three played very differently. My first was a bit brighter in sound and was a very good all around instrument. I used it for a lot of solo work and substitute orchestral playing in the mid-1980's. I also won a prominent professional position on this instrument, but I did not use it on the gig.

My second was made in the early 1980's and played much bigger than my first. I used it for everything from orchestral playing to quintet work. It was not as nimble as my previous 188 for solo stuff. But I thought it was (and is) the best 188 I have ever played.

My third was a new instrument that I eventually sold to a student when I started conducting more. I bought it new in the late 1990's but only owned it for a year. It was very good overall, but the low register wasn't like my second horn. My student loved it and, to be honest, he facilitated the low range better than the old man here. He is not a professional but still owns the instrument to this day.

My recommendation: Try out a couple of them if you can. Also, if you can find one made in the early 1980's, I would give that a try. In general, I've found them to be mostly consistent in pitch and general response. But I would still try a few to find the one for you in regards to sound and registry.

Good Luck,

Mark

I don't know that you really do need a CC tuba. I have known symphony tubists who do well with a BBb tuba and do fine.

In college, even if you are an "orchestra" performance major, you WILL be playing in concert band as well, usually as one of the plenary requirements of being in so many ensembles. Remember that concert band music is written for BBb tubas. Some pieces lay better under the valves for BBb, others for CC. My college bought two CC Yamahas. Fine for orchestra. The other guy and I were always fiddling with them to get them in tune for band, and practicing a lot more on fingerings, not to learn "new" fingerings, but some things just got awkward on the CC, especially with several flats and hovering around the low Ab range. I have since retreated to my Besson and my Souzy. Life is much less complicated as a result.

Then again, you can always get the CC, and when you play in band, fix down the thumb rotor, pull the other slides, and play it as a BBb, watching for quirks in intonation that will arise!

iiipopes wrote:In college, even if you are an "orchestra" performance major, you WILL be playing in concert band as well, usually as one of the plenary requirements of being in so many ensembles. Remember that concert band music is written for BBb tubas.

I have heard this old chestnut over and over again. But I've played in bands where the sections were divided between C and Bb players, and never felt like there were problems that resulted. I seriously doubt that any composer thinks about how well the music sits under the fingers of any of the instruments, let alone the tuba. They may think that certain keys are easier to sell to band directors than certain other keys. It would probably be hard to sell a band work written in four sharps, for example, even though orchestras play these all the time and usually with wind players using the same instruments they'd use in band (trumpets and tubas being the only exceptions).

Fact is, C and Bb tubas are equally capable of playing in tune if their owners are capable of playing in tune. And any college symphonic band should be populated by such players, particularly if they are music majors.

Most professional symphonic bands in the U.S. have sections of CC tuba players. I don't recall seeing any BBb tubas in Pershing's Own when they performed at the Army Tuba Conference, for example.

I have always defended the use of Bb tubas by adult amateurs, because they are indeed just as good (when you get a good one) and you can get an instrument of similar quality for much less money. Also, I defy any tuba player, let alone any non-tuba player, to distinguish a Bb and C tuba when played from behind a screen by a player equally competent on both. They feel different to the player, but they don't sound different merely by virtue of their key.

Even so, no aspiring pro should be limited to the Bb tuba. All college tuba majors will be expected to be proficient on all keys of tubas, and the ones most likely to succeed won't have to cross any terrible mental bridges to do so. Most college performance majors will have to justify to their teachers why they are persisting with a Bb tuba before they even play a note, and who needs that uphill battle? The teachers will assume, often rightly, that the resistance to learn C is laziness, which is one trait completely incompatible with being a performance major with any hope of success.

So, any tuba player going to Tennessee Tech, where Winston Morris is known to be a complete Miraphonaholic, would be well advised to walk in with a good 188, and hope he can get as much sound out of it as Morris does out of a 184.

Rick "calling this a preemptive response" Denney

I loved my 188 when I had it. I just had a problem with the valves but I believe that was just me and the way I held the horn. Go for it and enjoy it, cause I'm sure you will.

As for type of tuba, I don't think it matters. I played my 188 in my college's wind ensemble, actually supporting the band alone by myself for one semester. I now have a an old BBb Gerhardt Schneider at my school that I would take to play in any orchestra. It's a fantastic horn!

What ever works!

In regard to the attempt to assassinate my character:

I am not talking about composer's intentions, I'm talking about experience in getting the music off the page and to the audience's ears. From what I have in the repertoire this year, it can be deduced that the composers were actually the opposite, knowing nothing about the pedagogy of tuba.

I was not talking about generalities about tuning. I was talking about a particular horn in a particular setting in personal experience. Modern tubas damn well better be able to play in tune with less adjustments than historically, especially with their price tags, and a lot of the new instruments from MW, B&S and others do just that. Even my 1971 Besson plays in tune with minimal adjustments.

As for "comments like these," opinions are opinions. What I said was not rude, condescending nor in the nature of a personal attack. It was an opinion. Opinions are what a forum is all about. If a member cannot deal with different opinions, he/she should resign his/her own membership.

Were I still in grad school, with a large music department as opposed to my small liberal arts college degree, I would be playing on one of the university's Miraphone CC as we speak.

I have learned more from pointed discussions with Rick, bloke, and a few others than I ever will from people who insist on "politically correct" posts. I have even publicly apologized where suggestions of mine were actually detrimental, not helpful. (Thank you Matt) You will notice that Rick voiced his reply in objective terms of experience, and I consider his post with great respect to the point of considering revision of my own opinion.

When in these discussions, I always endeavor to toe the line by the usual polite debate protocols: I respectfully disagree, have you considered, my experience is, etc. and avoid personal comments. On one occasion on another forum when I did pop a gasket, I posted an apology thread separately so that not only the subject member, but the administration of the forum could see and offer constructive resolution to the impasse. That particular subject member accepted my apology, and we now have constructive dialog.

However, with opinions that are nothing but disguised character assinations, I consider the source with a pinch of salt and move on. So, instead of harping on me, post your own opinion based on your own education and experience. I will accept an apology for the character assassination attempt, or as on another forum where a member would not apologize for a similar character assassination attempt, I will gladly see you resign your own membership.

Doc wrote:There are a lot of assholes around here, and I'm one of them

Oh, it's just TOO easy!

For those of you who have objectively disagreed with me and put good objective reasons behind it, thank you. I stand corrected and unreservedly yield to the collective wisdom of the forum. I apologize for getting off thread to the detriment of joshstanman trying to get advice on making some very important decisions. I appreciate and accept the offer of a beer, even if it can only be in cyber form right now. The next round is on me.

Brian Molinar wrote:This observation is just stupid.... Comments like that should be grounds for getting you IP Banned from this forum.

Ease up, there, Brian. It was the old chestnut I attacked not the person who repeated it. And there have been some mighty high-end performers and teachers who have themselves repeated it. That's why it's a chestnut--it gets repeated as if it were true. Were it stupid, it would not warrant so detailed a rebuttal.

As for who gets banned, well, I suggest we leave that to Sean.

Rick "who thinks lots of high-school kids should indeed stick with Bb--even music majors if they are going into education--unless they want to add C to their arsenal" Denney

joshstanman -

You have just encountered a great reason to always stay in touch with a good forum or other network of people in your chosen area. Things do change. It wasn't that long ago (was it, guys?) that trumpet players were told to "smile and press" to get high notes. We have better ways than that now there is more understanding of what embouchure muscles do. Likewise, in the grand scheme of things, the tuba is one of the youngest of the orchestra instruments. There's still a long way to go to "perfect" it, whatever that may turn out to be.

Thanks again, guys.

My teacher in grad school, the late Ev Gilmore (of the Dallas Symphony), did almost everything with BBb tuba. He had CC tubas and he had F and Eb tubas. He questioned why my main axe was a CC. I didn't have a good answer for him.

It is extreme. It is the one line that really was not supposed to be taken seriously. Actually, it really does not work because it can alter the intonational balance of the horn. The guy next to me in lodge band has a MW Bell CC, and I tease him about that constantly. He then teases me why don't I double on upright double bass, as in, you know, the "real" bass instrument of the orchestra.

Learning CC fingerings was not that difficult for me, since I had both several years of piano and several years of trumpet, starting in 2nd grade and 5th grade, respectively. If I had my absolute "druthers," I'd have one of each so I could be lazy and play whichever whenever I wanted to.

BTW, this very website has excellent fingering charts for the various pitched tubas, and some more helpful articles in Tips.

Wasn't Josh asking for opinions on the 188? How did we get to another CC vs. BBb debate?

If Winston Morris recommends a 188, then get one.
If Winston Morris says to practice 26 hours a day, then do it
If Winston Morris says to stand on your head and juggle bowling balls with your feet while you practice, then do it.

Nuff said

True, but it was said that a CC tuba was needed. Winston Morris has students who play BBb tubas.