TubeNet

Right, might be easier to start with where to buy it. There are too many options to think about. You could end up like a familiar Tubenet participant recently with what seemed like a never ending parade of candidates.

If you'd be willing to reveal your general location, someone might know a nearby repair shop or instrument retailer who'd be likely to have a few nice used tubas on hand. I think a good 4 valve Bb tuba, in fair shape, could cost half your $4K or less. (Not that I think you need to shell out for 4 valves, 3 will do for Bb.)

Welcome to TubeNet. Your familiarity with the basement register will serve you well. About two years ago, I was in the same place you are and can assure you that the quest for the "perfect" tuba is never-ending. Of course, double bass players are no different.

As already stated, there are many options for you. Dillon's in NJ has a few horns you may find useful, give Matt Walters a shout. BBC is also a great place to deal with, as is WWBW in South Bend, IN. Contact info for all these can be found on the "Shops" page above. There are others as well.

IMHO, while three valves are enough, four is better and worth the extra $$. Two tubas I can recommend, based on experience, are the VMI 2103 and the Jupiter 582S. Bothe can be found new for about $3.5k. There's actually a 2103 (under the Schmidt name) in the FS section right now. The 2103 is well thought of by many on this board.

I'm sure you'll hear from others. Good luck.

BTW: are you the same bdengler that was a mod on TalkBass? You gave me a warm welcome when I joined a couple of years back. I'm sorry to hear you find it hard to continue to play upright, but as a person with spinal arthritis, understand.

Donn wrote:(Not that I think you need to shell out for 4 valves, 3 will do for Bb.)

With great respect and humility, allow me to STRONGLY disagree. Not having $4K to sink into a horn, I'm stuck with a BBb that has a pretty decent sound but only 3 valves, and I have to play trombone every time I play low C/B/F/E. Besides, (being unable -- as will our adult beginner, at least for some time -- to reliably use privileged tones) I am unable to play notes between low E and pedal Bb AT ALL. If you can afford it, get a horn with 4 valves.

The good news is that for $4K, there are lots of good models available to you, especially if you're willing to buy used. Quite good instruments can be gotten (as someone else noted) for about half that. New within your budget, there's the King 2341, Weril 680 (681?682? whatever), VMI 2103, and the Dalyan. An instrument you absolutely should try, though it would have to be used to come in under $4000, is the Miraphone 186. There are plenty of others, too, especially (again) if you go used. If you see other brands that you aren't sure of, use the 'search' function of this site and you will probably find a lot of useful feedback.

If you have the time, consider scheduling a flight to one of the larger retailers (Dillons, Baltimore Brass, Brasswind, etc.) and spending a day. If you shop for a good fare, your $4000 will pay for a flight, a nice horn, and some lessons when you get home!
____________________________
Joe Baker, who is looking forward to doing this next spring, or thereabouts.

Joe Baker wrote:

Donn wrote:(Not that I think you need to shell out for 4 valves, 3 will do for Bb.)

With great respect and humility, allow me to STRONGLY disagree. Not having $4K to sink into a horn, I'm stuck with a BBb that has a pretty decent sound but only 3 valves, and I have to play trombone every time I play low C/B/F/E. Besides, (being unable -- as will our adult beginner, at least for some time -- to reliably use privileged tones) I am unable to play notes between low E and pedal Bb AT ALL. If you can afford it, get a horn with 4 valves.
...

While I agree that if he can afford it a 4th valve is worth the investment, a 3 valve tuba can be quite useable in most community bands. I have never seen a note below low F in community band music that wasn't doubled an octave above, and even then the lowest that I have seen was a low D.

While I use a King 2341, King 1291, or Conn 40K as my BBb tubas, I have a 3 valve Besson compensating BBb that I think is a great horn for a community band. Intonation is good down to the low E, it has a great sound, and cost about $500, although I think a more typical price for one of these would be around $1000-$1500.

Just because one CAN spend $4000 doesn't mean one should. Still, the horns that others have suggested are all good options. Your best best is to call some of the shops already mentioned and see what they have used. You should be able to get a good playing 4 valve BBb tuba in top condition for between $2500 and $3500.

Lew wrote:

Joe Baker wrote:

Donn wrote:(Not that I think you need to shell out for 4 valves, 3 will do for Bb.)

With great respect and humility, allow me to STRONGLY disagree. Not having $4K to sink into a horn, I'm stuck with a BBb that has a pretty decent sound but only 3 valves, and I have to play trombone every time I play low C/B/F/E. Besides, (being unable -- as will our adult beginner, at least for some time -- to reliably use privileged tones) I am unable to play notes between low E and pedal Bb AT ALL. If you can afford it, get a horn with 4 valves.
...

While I agree that if he can afford it a 4th valve is worth the investment, a 3 valve tuba can be quite useable in most community bands. I have never seen a note below low F in community band music that wasn't doubled an octave above, and even then the lowest that I have seen was a low D.

I agree with Joe on this one. Resale values of 3-valve vs. 4-valve tubas also agree with us.

bdengler wrote:After 30 years, I'm going back to the tuba! I played double bass as an amateur adult, but arthritis in my left hand forced me to give it up and to switch to tuba so I can keep playing with some community orchestras. But I'm lost on picking a tuba. What's a good tuba to get started with that isn't prohibitively expensive? I was hopeful I could find something under $4,000. Thanks, Brian

I'll attempt this again after the server lost my last attempt.

Let me try to write down some requirements that I think are pertinent to your situation:

1. The instrument must play in tune without special manipulations. For a beginner with trained ears such as you, nearly all manipulations are special but the standard of result is much higher than for most beginners.

2. The instrument must be small and light enough not to make your arthritis worse.

3. The instrument must produce enough sound to support a community orchestra or band.

4. The instrument must be easy to blow, meaning that it speaks easily and provides a high ratio of sound output to air input.

5. The instrument must be versatile enough to cover the literature, which in a community orchestra I would guess to be low Eb to perhaps middle C. That doesn't mean you'll be ready for 2-1/2 octaves initially, of course.

6. The instrument must cost less than $4000.

Requirement 6 eliminates nearly all C and newer-style Eb tubas.

Requirement 5 eliminates three-valve tubas, with the possible exception of three-valve compensating tubas, though these are rare indeed.

Requirement 4 eliminates most instruments intended for professional use in large ensembles, with few exceptions.

Requirement 3 eliminates most 3/4-size instruments.

Requirement 2 eliminates large 5/4 and 6/4 instruments.

Requirement 1 eliminates a goodly portion of what's left.

I think these requirements lead you to a good, medium-bore 4/4 Bb tuba with four valves. The four that spring to mind as the best fit are:

1. new King 2341. 4/4 front-action piston tuba in Bb.
2. used Miraphone 186-4U Bb. 4/4 rotary tuba in Bb.
3. used (or new, if you are lucky) VMI 2103 or one of its variants, including the B&S PT-1, F. Schmidt, etc.
4. used VMI 3301 (B&S PT-2P, F. Schmidt, etc.), though good used examples may not fit your budget.

All of these are good enough to play forever, but they will also all hold their value well if you change course once you are past the beginner stage.

There are other individual isntruments that might meet all the requirements, but be wary of personal testimonials from players who are no longer beginners. Make sure any suggestions meet your requirements, which means making sure those who give you advice understand your requirements.

For example, a Cerveny Piggy CC would meet all the requirements above, except that most have dodgy intonation that a skilled player will have learned to manage. A 4-valve Miraphone 184 or 186 CC will fit all the requirements with the likely exception of price, and might be the only C tuba to do so. From these examples, understand that I'm not recommending against C tubas, just pointing out that nearly all of them don't meet your requirements.

Make sure your program includes instruction from a professional tuba player, who can get you started with good fundamentals. Those of us who did not get early lessons have paid ever since.

Rick "trying to give advice rather than endorsements" Denney

Asking about what tuba to get and where to buy it is indeed an important part of getting back into tuba playing. However, you probably need more and better advice than you can get on the Internet. I suggest you inquire about finding a teacher who can advise you personally about all aspects of getting back to tuba, including finding a suitable instrument for your particular needs. At least a few lessons would help, too.

Joe Baker wrote:With great respect and humility, allow me to STRONGLY disagree. Not having $4K to sink into a horn, I'm stuck with a BBb that has a pretty decent sound but only 3 valves, and I have to play trombone every time I play low C/B/F/E. Besides, (being unable -- as will our adult beginner, at least for some time -- to reliably use privileged tones) I am unable to play notes between low E and pedal Bb AT ALL. If you can afford it, get a horn with 4 valves.

Don't sweat the respect, really isn't necessary in this case! By all means, repertoire that goes below E an octave below the staff calls for 4 valves. (Maybe - on mine, privileged tones don't sound much worse than the real thing, they're easier to play, and a beginner isn't likely to get anything but crap on those notes in any case.) But in my very modest band music playing career, I don't believe I have ever seen a part go into that range, at all! I'm sure it happens, you don't have to tell me about it, but I'm thinking a beginner could hope that the water isn't going to get that deep for starters. Later, the cheap 3 valve horn might still be good for parades, backpacking, who knows.

When I decided at the tender age of 30 to ditch the string bass and take up the tuba, I got a very dented Olds 3 valve Bb, and I think I would have done better to stick with it, than replace it as I did with a big German 4 valve rotary and a 4 valve sousaphone.

But enough of my questionable insights. What's with the trombone playing? Do you tune 3 low? I think you should - 3 should be much lower than 12, so 1-3 F sounds the same as open F. B/E would still be a little sharp. Pardon me if that's obvious.

I don't disagree with anything that's been posted. 7 years ago I was in a similar position, but I didn't have $4000. So I bought what was available in town & within my budget-an Amati (I know most of you are Amati haters). But while it's not my "dream" horn, I've managed to make do in community band and small ensemble settings. Good luck with finding a horn and your playing.

Donn wrote:... What's with the trombone playing? ...

In many contexts I could "get away with" compromise tuning, but in some of the places I play I would get "the eyebrows" for doing so. Besides, as trombone is my better instrument, there's already a piece of my brain that's accustomed to listening for pitch and adjusting a slide; something that is (basically) already there for our bass-fiddler friend, as well. But he's got to learn embouchure, fingerings, breath control -- why make him futz with a tuning slide? Since he's not constrained by price, it would make no sense to do so.
__________________________________
Joe Baker, who COULD get by with a G bugle and 2 valves, but is glad he doesn't have to.

Rick Denney wrote: 1. new King 2341. 4/4 front-action piston tuba in Bb.
2. used Miraphone 186-4U Bb. 4/4 rotary tuba in Bb.

Either of these would be fantastic for your situation... that's what I would go with. (add a "used" King to the list too).

To play devil's advocate, you could pursue the cheapest way of all. E-Bay!
You could roll the dice and maybe, like me and many others, find the tuba of your dreams. The drawback is, you can't play it before you buy it but you can sell it to one of these cafes to hang on their walls with all the ratty guitars, clarinets and bugles.
I got my 1940 King for $350 (Eb) and though it is a tad dented up for community band, Rock bands love a horn with soul. The valves are tight and fast and I love the sound.
Schmidt's Music in Pensacola cleaned it and serviced everything for $150-and added two water keys and I'm recording with it and gigging with a very entertaining trio.
Listen to my King at:
www.johnreno.com/
Click music and then click song titles in red.

bdengler wrote:Currently, I'm using one of the school's Meinel's and frankly, it's hard to play except in the lower ranges (below the open F).

Brian, you gotta be careful how you say "Meinl". There's Meinl-Weston, Rudolf Meinl, and Boehm and Meinl, all of which make fine tubas, and all of which are unrelated to each other, heh, heh. Meinl's a common a name in southern Germany, apparently.

A Rudi Meinl is an example of a great horn that would not meet all your requirements. They are large of bore and require lots of air. If you have the air, they provide the reward, but are not forgiving of those of us with more limited flow. If the instrument you are playing is a Bb, it's probably a Meinl-Weston Model 25, which is a fine instrument, though to me it has always had a little more closed sound than the Miraphone 186, which is quite similar in appearance and configuration. The Miraphone will do more with less, but it may not go as far if you have gobs of air flow (I say that in hopes of preventing the Model 25 advocates from going on the attack, heh, heh). If it's a Boehm and Meinl, you should send it to me immediately for "disposal".

After playing a M-W 25, I think you'll be surprised at the sound you can make on a King 2341.

Rick "who likes a clear sound with lots of color" Denney

bdengler wrote:. . . so I can keep playing with some community orchestras.

A CC instrument probably would be more compatible with the key signatures used by the wire choir. I'm speaking of ease of fingerings and general intonation. Just a thought.

I second the previous suggestions to visit a dealer with a large inventory. I have enjoyed my visits to Baltimore Brass, Dillon's in Woodbridge, New Jersey, and Woodwind & Brasswind in South Bend, Indiana.

Rick Denney wrote:Brian, you gotta be careful how you say "Meinl". There's Meinl-Weston, Rudolf Meinl, and Boehm and Meinl, all of which make fine tubas, and all of which are unrelated to each other, heh, heh. Meinl's a common a name in southern Germany, apparently.

...and there was an American maker who actually spelled his name "Meinel". Those beasts are pretty uncommon, though.

Dean E wrote:

bdengler wrote:. . . so I can keep playing with some community orchestras.

A CC instrument probably would be more compatible with the key signatures used by the wire choir. I'm speaking of ease of fingerings and general intonation. Just a thought.

Dean, this is, of course, theme #1 in the discussions of Bb versus C. But I think it's more myth than fact.

Truth is, only Americans initially preferred C tubas in orchestra, and still the Bb is the preferred contrabass tuba in lots of places where they play in tune just fine.

I'm not saying that Bb is better, of course. But whatever C tubas have that Bb tubas don't, manageable intonation in orchestral music isn't one of them. I've practiced a lot of orchestral excerpts in the privacy of my practice room, and it seems to me that there is only one reason why the sharp keys tangle my fingers up more: I don't practice them as much. Once I get the pattern under my fingers, it doesn't seem any more physically challenging than playing in many other keys.

As to intonation, some revered C tubas have intonation that hardly lines up with western tonality, and I find that the better Bb tubas are actually easier to play in tune (with anybody). The Bb tubas that don't play in tune don't last on the market, because those who play Bb in America are less willing and able to deal with intonation funkiness.

So, I think the myth says more about band tuba players sitting in orchestras with their Bb tubas than about Bb tubas in the hands of players experienced in orchestras. In band, you just don't get the practice with sharp keys and with wire-choir types of intonation issues.

But I get concerned about how we present advice to new folks who ask for it. Anyone who has a good sense of pitch is going to be able to play in tune with the instruments that have been suggested, no matter what the key. But he will not be able to meet his other requirements with nearly all CC tubas he might run across. Nearly all C tubas that might be found for less than $4000 will come with intonation baggage that will drive a good musician nuts if his beginner chops can't cope with it.

Trust me, it's quite easy for a good musician with reasonable technique to play a good Bb tuba in an orchestra, especially a community orchestra where the intonation of the string section is likely to be a fairly broad target anyway.

Rick "who can find no compelling reason for an amateur to play a C tuba unless he wants to" Denney

My teacher suggested I stick with the BBb tuba. I think part of his reason was that I was already familiar with Bb tubas.

Of course this is an important reason. But don't forget that most instruments in a community band are in Bb. They have all similar intonation issues and are easier to play in tune with.

a high percentage of trombone sections also play instruments in Bb....

MikeMason wrote:a high percentage of trombone sections also play instruments in Bb....

I believe a high percentage of trombones have slides, also. They are capable of playing very well in tune, and also of playing very badly out of tune.

Lars Travén wrote:Of course this is an important reason. But don't forget that most instruments in a community band are in Bb. They have all similar intonation issues and are easier to play in tune with.

Most of the wind instruments in orchestras are the same as they are in wind bands. The trumpet players will use a C trumpet (for SOME works), but everything else is the same. Why do only tuba players expect Bb tubas to be out of tune in orchestras?

Rick "who thinks the tuba player for the Berlin Phil would laugh at this myth" Denney