TubeNet

Just a question that seems to sneak around..

anyone think race attributes to gigs, pro music jobs, etc.? anyone have ne examples? Just curious about the perspective of professional adults in this field..thanks

hard to believe ALL auditions are peformed behind a screen

D*mn straight there's racism!

How else can you explain that the euphonium gets "The Swan" for a solo and the tuba gets "The Elephant"?

Easy, tiger. If we're talking symphony auditions, almost all ARE screened for at least the first few rounds. The finals are often NOT screened. It's my opinion that there's very little racism in the symphony orchestra world when it comes to hiring people - they just want the best musician. There are several tuba players holding positions in major orchestras today who are not Caucasian.

Racism in the general music world - that's an interesting question, and a broad one. I'm sure it was very much an issue during much of the last century - the orchestra was, historically, the white man's domain, while jazz was the black man's music. There were elements in each camp that worked to keep this segregation, and elements that worked against it. I think there is less perception of racism these days but the cultural divide still exists. You could probably write a book on this topic.

In my country I often meet musicians who are jealously for others musicians succes. I've heard many-many times that they said: They must be jewish-people that they have so many gigs!! I'm really-really sad that thing like this happens, and I ask myself very often: what makes people thinking so !!

I'm very sad, because it leads several times to agression and hate. It makes me so disappointed in the world sometimes!
But-answering your question- racism is often there!

Peace

Calm down, passion4tuba. I don't think his post warranted such a response.

I doubt there's any more or less racism than in any other industry.

There's probably a little less by the fact (as noted above) that many auditions are screened, but some are not. Plus, many screened auditions take down the screen in the final rounds.

Ultimately, the racial bias is an individual bias. If someone on an audition committee is racist, they may allow some of that bias into their recommendations, or they may not. They may be doing it consciously, or they may not. You don't know, and they aren't going to admit it (and there's really nothing you can do about it).

From what I've seen, orchestras hire a wide variety of races when they select members. Most prominently is the presence of players of the Asian race in the string section.

If you want some answers, you should consider doing some research yourself. Go to websites of professional orchestras and check out their personnel rosters. You will find all sorts of names from all sorts of countries in their ranks.

Again, racism is an individual trait, something you can't really apply to a whole industry. If you knock the socks of an audition committee, they won't care what race you are.

One thing I'd like to know is if there is any affirmative action happening (or has happened) in orchestras. Also, has there been racism in orchestras of the past (when racism was rather popular)? There was a time when racism and affirmative action was quite popular amoung many different industries, was the music industry affected in the same way?

the Michigan Legislature withheld nearly $1.3 million in aid [to the Detroit Symphony], threatening to picket concerts if the orchestra did not hire more black musicians.

Stephen Carter, a black law professor at Yale had this commentary on that particular situation:

"In 1988 ,. . . members of the Michigan legislature argued that they could tell from the numbers that the Detroit Symphony Orchestra was not doing all it could to attract black classical musicians. Only discrimination, it seems, was a possible explanation for the fact that the orchestra employs only one full-time black performer. Never mind that an entirely blind screening process was used to hire musicians; never mind that out of 5,000 orchestra bound musicians at the nation's top twenty-five conservatories, only 100 were black, of whom a normal distribution would predict that perhaps a fifth - twenty - were good enough to play in a major orchestra. The Detroit Symphony might have been the most racist institution in the world or the most racially benevolent one, but the statistics do not hold the answer."

passion4tuba wrote:anyone think race attributes to gigs, pro music jobs, etc.?

You are right, anyone other than whitey can't make it in music.

How about gender issues? Congrats top Carol for breaking through.

___

The only thing that should matter is the way a person performs. For my publishing company, many of the arrangers or writers I have never met. Some I have never spoken with, but have exchanged many emails. Doesn't matter if they are black, blue, green, white, purple, man, woman, etc. If the chart is good, I will do my best to get it into the catalog. I would hope an orchestra would do the same thing.

Although I know racism exists, let's hope we are getting closer to being "color" blind.

passion4tuba wrote:harold, i dont need to research ne thing, you could just simply keep ur chastising comments to yourself

this being tubenet, i can ask whatever i please

Zack, do not send faster than you can receive.

Rick "warning that provocative threads will draw provocative responses" Denney

Yes, racial hatred is RAMPANT in the music business. Check out these lyrics:

"Bust a Glock; devils get shot. . . . when God give the word me herd like the buffalo through the neighborhood; watch me blast. . . . I'm killing more crackers than Bosnia-Herzegovina, each and everyday. . . . don't bust until you see the whites of his eyes, the whites of his skin. . . . Louis Farrakhan . . . Bloods and CRIPS, and little old me, and we all getting ready for the enemy";
-- Ice Cube, Lethal Injection

But if you mean institutional racism by whites against minorities... I've not heard anyone make a decent case for this in a LONG time. Musicians, especially in jazz, were among the first people to break down racial barriers, and (as a group) take considerable pride in having done so.

One caveat, though: I don't know of specific examples, but it's quite possible -- indeed, it seems likely -- that some orchestras may still bear the mark of racism in the past. Over the last 40 years, policies and attitudes have changed in ways that have increasingly leveled the playing field. I would expect that the longer a player has been in an orchestra, the less likely it was that a minority player would have had a fair chance to compete against him. The half of an orchestra that's been there the longest is likely "whiter" than the half that's been there the least time. Because of tenure, there's little that can be done about that, other than to allow attrition to open up new spots that can then be fairly competed for.

If the question is "does a minority have an equal chance to compete for the limited number of musical jobs available these days", then I'd say all the evidence says "yes".
________________________________
Joe Baker, who notes that it was news to see a woman and a 20-year-old win a major tuba job, but doesn't think it would have been any big deal to see a minority win it.

institutional racism by whites against minorities - I saw much less evidence of this in the orchestral world than in the business world; in fact, professional contracts for symphonies of all sizes go way out of their way to ensure fairness for any hiring, while the business world is... well... business, with all of the well-publicised positives and negatives that exist with it.

What I can say is that the orchestra I played in for the last 20 years of my career had beside me a double-bass section which included female(s) and an African-American gentleman

well, i suppose my views are a lil bit skewed because of the urban area i preside in..sorry for snappin on you harold, i was trippin

montre8 wrote:I don't believe that there's much racism as far as accepting qualified players - the problem is that there aren't enough qualified players. We attended a Cleveland Orchestra performance at Severance over vacation and there was one Black on the entire stage. Looking over the program I saw a minute number of Hispanic names - granted, not always an indicator. Most big name orchestras that I have seen have similar ethnic make-ups. Euro ones too.

I'm with Joe--this way lies madness. Why, for example, in the first violins are Asians over-represented in Cleveland? Is it because they're a bunch of bigots?

There are just too many cultural (not all of them economic, either) factors. Let's face it, most of the stuff that an orchestra plays is from western Europe or from descendents of western Europeans. Are you advocating that someone should be a Diana Moon Glampers to ensure that Mongolian composers aren't given short shrift?

This thread is just sooooo stoooopid.

Maybe we should ask some of these folks what they think . . .

http://astro.temple.edu/~rgreene/BlackC ... mances.htm

montre8 wrote:INot at all..... I advocate music education for all students where ever they attend school. I do not advocate personnel quotas - the best playing candidates should get the job no matter of their color. I'd like to see more minorities get the same opportunities for classical exposure, education and training, that's all. Broaden the talent pool and more minorites will win jobs. Is that wrong?

Not wrong, but maybe a bit myopic.

So much of music belongs to one's cultural background. Expecting more participation in the western European orchestral tradition by simply making it available to everyone regardless of income or ethncity isn't being realistic, I think.

Turn the issue on its head. Do you think that by exposing more kids to classical Chinese opera in Little Rock will cause a great influx into the ranks of Chinese opera performers by the sons of the South?

I'm content to think that if someone, regardless of race (whatever that means), national origin, sex or beer preference will find a way to have a place in music making, if that's what they really want and they get the itch to.

My own family had very little tolerance for music much more classical than Ethel Waters playing "Tico Tico". When I listened to more serious stuff, I was ridiculed for being a "longhair" by all family members. While I didn't pursue a career in music (that's probably for the best), my love of it never deserted me, regardless of what others said.

The real question is... when will this thread find itself locked?

joshstanman wrote:My personal take:

Racism no longer exists, UNTIL people of a minority begin looking for EXCUSES as to why they don't get the job, get in the school, etc. If you look at percentages (I haven't--just speculation), I would say that the minorities are enormously ahead of caucasians in terms of benefits, jobs (often based on their race along), etc. I personally am a firm believer in Affirmative Action being "Affirmative Bullshit". This is America. The barriers have been broken as far as opportunities, it just has to be brought down by a little hard work. My Asian buddy (1/2 Vietnamese) has been offered a full ride to a school that I have also applied to, and my GPA and ACT scores far surpass his. So, in essence, is this reversing the "racism" thing?

Josh, Let me first say that I'm sitting here hoping that your tuba arrives safely and you can go buy the Roger Bobo CD's............
However, being both a "caucasion" and a "minority" I can tell you that I've both experienced and witnessed racism, in the music buisness, and in hotel's, rest stops and many places we might have stopped on a tour. I witnessed some really ugly stuff one time on tour, and the threat of the locals losing their jobs from the stage hands union was the only thing that got our tour loaded in that day.
I would have to agree with the Windshield Bug though, that in the part of the music world where you are judged on your playing alone, I don't think it exists.
On another note, it would piss me off if anybody told me that all of the gigs I have are due to the fact that I'm jewish, I always thought it was because when my friends in school were drinking, I was practicing.......
Peace.
ASG