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Whole lot of shakin' going on - NOT
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:32 pm
by Alex F
I did not see the orginal article, but this letter gives you a pretty good idea of the content.
===============
Chicago Sun-Times
Letters to the Editor
Take note: CSO musicians aren't bored
March 21, 2006
This letter is in response to the Feb. 26 article about perceptions tied to classical music performances ["Are they ready to rock?"], the nature of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra concert experience and, specifically, our own CSO musicians' demeanor on stage. Despite the fact that several professional musicians were quoted, two of whom are members of the CSO, we feel that this opinion piece missed some really important points.
The writer made assertions about how bored and disengaged classical musicians appear to him on stage. We assure you that nothing could be farther from the truth.
Appearances, at first glance, can be deceiving and might not take into account everything that is happening on stage. Performing classical orchestral music, with different, sometimes brand-new, and often very challenging repertoire every week, requires the utmost in concentration, discipline and practice. Just to execute the musical parts is sometimes a challenge. Combine that with following the gestures of the conductor, listening intently to your colleagues so what you play actually fits with the entire orchestra, and trying to mediate one's own musical ideas, all simultaneously, and you can see that we cannot afford to be distracted or distracting. For many of us, our training emphasizes efficient movement, keeping unnecessary motions to a minimum.
No matter how easy it may look to the audience, our performance requires this level of dedication and concentration. Our audience knows that we are fully committed to the quality and the experience of the music we produce. That is what everyone expects from the CSO and that is what, for over a 100 years, we have given and we continue to give to audiences both in Chicago and around the world.
Do we smile or sway or move in rhythm while we play? Not usually, and if we do, not in a very visible way. Does this mean we are bored or disconnected from the audience? Definitely not. Musicians are very keenly aware of the audience, how attentive it is, and how moved it is by our performances. We have a wonderful, knowledgeable audience in Chicago for which it is a great pleasure to perform. We hope the smiles on our faces and our own applause at the end of a performance show how much we enjoy our work and appreciate our concertgoers.
Stephen Lester, chairman,
Chicago Symphony Orchestra Members Committee
================
So . . . what on-stage orchestra demeanor do you find appropriate or not??
Whole lot of shakin' goin' on--not
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:38 pm
by TubaRay
Mr. Lester's description of the CSO does it for me.
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:43 pm
by chronolith
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:58 pm
by tubeast
I like to watch musicians do their work. I like it when they prepare for their entrances, and an occasional smile of a musician preparing and anticipating an exciting phrase is something that will give me an impression of HUMANS making and enjoying MUSIC.
But then again, I´m known to bury my head in my arms, resting on the back rest of the next row, focusing on what´s going on audibly in the orchestra.
I don´t think anyone attends a classical concert to "enjoy the show". Except, maybe, the "Last Night Of The Proms", but that´s something totally different.
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:11 pm
by Alex C
The article referred to wants a little more showmanship out of the CSO. The CSO has plenty of showmanship... but it's for the ears, not the eyes.
I'm afraid this is the opinion of a lot of people who don't really "get" classical music. They are our non-audience.
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:02 am
by UDELBR
(Preemptive disclaimer: I agree wholeheartedly with those who've said that the CSO looks stoic merely because they're professionals doing a job at a very high level. Also, anyone lucky enough to earn their groceries playing the TUBA should feel themselves very fortunate indeed.) That said....
There are a number of respected studies which show that orchestral musicians score very low in job satisfaction; scoring lower in job satisfaction and overall happiness than flight attendants, mental health workers, beer salesmen, and even prison guards. In fact, only nurses in operating rooms and semiconductor fabrication teams scored lower than orchestral musicians.
http://www.soi.org/harmony/archive/2/In ... n_Judy.pdf
And this from
Doug Yeo's page:
Recent studies have pointed out the fact that orchestral musicians as a group show significant conflicting emotions regarding their chosen profession. (2) In a survey of professional orchestra musicians and workers in other professions in the United States, Great Britain and Germany (3), data concluded that orchestra musicians scored the highest in terms of having personal, self-directed internal motivation. However when asked whether they were generally satisfied with their job, orchestra musicians ranked seventh out of 13 categories, below federal prison guards and just above industrial production teams. The results were even more distressing when asked about whether their job provided personal growth and development, where orchestra musicians ranked ninth.
In a now legendary discussion, Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra Managing Director Ernest Fleischmann and New Criterion writer Samuel Lipman engaged in a spirited debate about the health of the modern symphony orchestra. (4) Fleischmann stated, ". . . life even in some of the great orchestras became increasingly frustrating: repetitive or boring repertoire, loss of musical identity, particularly for string players, incompetent conductors, bad hall, not enough money, much stress. No life for a real musician this, with little opportunity to develop as an artist, let alone as a human being. Dissatisfaction, frustration, antagonism, boredom - all these still exist among musicians in orchestras everywhere. . ."
Fleischmann's observations are those of a seasoned orchestra manager; he surely is in a position to watch the actions and attitudes of orchestral musicians on a day to day basis. Since his gloomy assessment of the state of the symphony orchestra, others have attempted to identify why it is musicians seem so unhappy with their lot.
Seymour and Robert Levine have defined a number of stressors that face musicians that cause players to be discontented in their jobs. These include:
-Performance anxiety (including a common drug remedy, the consumption of beta-blockers).
-Simply playing their instruments (which amount to assuming an unnatural position for extended period of time).
-Fear of disability.
-Unsatisfactory comparison of their playing against the ideal they have set for themselves.
-The necessity to confront their professional failings regularly.
All of these can be summed up as the fact that orchestral musicians suffer from a fundamental lack of control in their profession. Regrettably, beyond suggesting that musicians attempt to exercise more control over their work environment (in mostly vague, unspecified ways), the researchers Levine offer scant hope for a significant change from the apparently dismal status quo.
To the outside observer, the prospect of a group of people who currently work at a profession for which they were trained, are paid a comfortable wage, receive up to 10 weeks of paid vacation a year and nightly experience the thrill of over 2000 people rising to their feet shouting "bravo," complaining about their day-to-day work life strikes many as both oxymoronic and silly. "Give me a job like that," some might say, "and I'd be a happy man."
Really?
Yet
another study says:
Musicians have little control over their working environment and
thus experience alienation, frustration, low morale, and hostility.
Robert and Seymour Levine suggest (and Forum participants
agree) that this general dissatisfaction manifests itself in the
orchestra’s labor-management structure:
Much of what is inexplicable to observers of professional
orchestras can be explained by stress caused by chronic lack
of control and musicians’ attempts to deal with it. Musicians’
first line of defense is the classic tactic of avoidance.
It is no accident that…the collective bargaining agreements
under which orchestras labor spell out in exquisite detail
the limits of a conductor’s authority over the musicians.
Such agreements attempt to limit the amount of time over
which musicians have no control, as well as to express their
need to control at least something about the workplace.
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:53 am
by Steve Marcus
This is why some concertgoers buy Terrace seats behind the orchestra in Chicago's Orchestra Hall, Kimmel Center, etc. They want to see the facial expressions of the conductor and the motions that the players do go through.
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:18 pm
by windshieldbug
See, Joe? Rather than NOT providing distraction, according to these guys you should be knocking over people with your "sympathetic vibrations" and that helicon...
On! OFF! ON! OFF! HALF ON! UP! DOWN! DO THE HOKEY-POKEY AND YOU TURN YOURSELF AROUND!
(Do yo think the violas could do the "Macarena" ?)
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:31 am
by lgb&dtuba
There was a riot during the 1861 Paris Opera performance of Wagner's Tannhauser because the members of the Jockey Club arrived late and missed the ballet.
Opera crowds in that time had more in common with rock concert audiences than the audiences who attend classic works today. Somewhere along the line the audiences became middle class people who wanted to cross over to upper class and thought that putting on tuxes and being ever so correct was the way to do it.
It's become so calcified and dead that we now have this type of discussion about whether the orchestra should "show emotion".
I'm picturing the "classic rock concert" 100 years from now where the audience sits quietly and attentively, dressed in their formal jeans and tshirts, while the "band" labors stoically through "Free Bird". And, of course, they won't be allowed to deviate one iota from the "original score".
If classical music, especially orchestral classical music, is going to survive and even be (gasp) profitable doesn't it make sense that it's going to have to loosen up and and start appealing to a wider, less stuffy audience? Clearly appealing to the pretentious isn't really working out in the long run. Normal people don't just listen to music because they're "supposed to".
They have to want to listen to it. They want to be entertained, not lectured.
Jim "donning my formal flame retardant tux" Wagner
Whole lot of shakin' goin' on--NOT
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:40 am
by TubaRay
lgb&dtuba wrote:
If classical music, especially orchestral classical music, is going to survive and even be (gasp) profitable doesn't it make sense that it's going to have to loosen up and and start appealing to a wider, less stuffy audience? Clearly appealing to the pretentious isn't really working out in the long run. Normal people don't just listen to music because they're "supposed to".
They have to want to listen to it. They want to be entertained, not lectured.
Jim "donning my formal flame retardant tux" Wagner
I will not attempt to make a long and complete response to this post, however I have something to say about it, anyway. First of all, I have to agree for the most part. People do, indeed, have to want to listen.
Today's audiences want to be entertained. This is both true and somewhat part of the problem. If I attend a symphony concert, I don't go to be entertained. I go to enjoy the performance, but I am not seeking to be entertained.
Much of the music we hear these days may be entertaining, but it does little more than that. Truthfully, at times I grow tired of being entertained by the music. For instance, I really like a lot of rock music. The problem is that I have a difficult time going somewhere where I don't have to hear the music. If I eat at a restaurant, there it is. Movies--more rock music. Go to the beach, attend a "praise" worship service, there it is again. Even if I sit in my front yard, I will probably hear a parade of passing cars there to provide me with unsolicited rock music. I like more variety in my listening pallete.
As a member of the TubaMeisters, I have grown a great deal in providing what our audiences want. The truth is that they wish to be entertained. Thankfully, in our case it is not(at least usually) rock music, but it is entertainment they seek. We make every attempt to provide this. We may be most serious about playing extremely well. Our audiences respond best to us when we play merely "well," and when we are very entertaining.
All this leads to me to see that symphony orchestras are being forced to attempt to entertain. I see this manifest itself in a variety of ways, but it is being attempted. For me the(hopefully) more educated listener, this is usually a bit annoying. Perhaps, though, this is what needs to take place in order to keep our orchestras alive. They have to reach a wider audience. If they do not discover how to do this, they will probably gradually die out. I hope this does not happen, but it is certainly a possibility. Some might even call this a probability.
I believe Jim's post was a good one. This is a topic worthy of discussion. I'm interested to see what direction it goes here on TubeNet.
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:52 am
by windshieldbug
lgb&dtuba wrote:If classical music, especially orchestral classical music, is going to survive and even be (gasp) profitable doesn't it make sense that it's going to have to loosen up and and start appealing to a wider, less stuffy audience? Clearly appealing to the pretentious isn't really working out in the long run. Normal people don't just listen to music because they're "supposed to". They have to want to listen to it. They want to be entertained, not lectured.
It's about practicality for this medium.
bloke wrote:if someone wishes to watch an entire orchestra swagger and sway as if there are ninety concertmasters on stage, they absolutely should attend Berlin Philharmonic concerts.
(and, as Joe points out, they'd better bring their BBb along, or they ain't playin'... there's restrictive, and then there's
restrictive... )
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:59 am
by tubeast
Granted, Jim, BUT...
... it would be necessary to re-educate a whole lot of people to get this done. It is my impression that BIG NAME conductors, stage-directors, musicians, and many others involved in building an ensemble´s or opera house´s (AND their own) reputation take themselves and their work too seriously.
And OF COURSE the audience is to honor the mere PRESENCE of these people by wearing stuff that will return to the rear end of their closets for the rest of the year.
To me it has always seemed as if this was a characteristic trait of Not-So-Great people.
Really-Great-People actually have no reason to fear disrespect, and can afford to ease up on their surroundings.
(and, in my experience, most DO ease up on their surroundings).
On the other hand: upon going to a concert or opera, I DO dress up nicer than usual because I feel good about it. I rarely have the chance to go, so I like to celebrate the occasion.
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:04 pm
by UDELBR
tubeast wrote: It is my impression that BIG NAME conductors, stage-directors, musicians, and many others involved in building an ensemble´s or opera house´s (AND their own) reputation take themselves and their work too seriously.
I'd read recently of a concert series in London where ticket-holders were invited for after-concert cocktails with the orchestra, and they could buttonhole that hunky tuba player (or less interesting players...) and interrogate him on his choice of mouthpieces or whatever. This seemes like a pretty good idea not only to loosen up folks' idea of orchestra music, but to help concert-goers feel truly invested in what they'd heard.
(sorry; can't seem to dredge up details of this series out of my beer-soaked brain...)

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:54 pm
by windshieldbug
UncleBeer wrote:I'd read recently of a concert series in London where ticket-holders were invited for after-concert cocktails with the orchestra, and they could buttonhole that hunky tuba player (or less interesting players...) and interrogate him on his choice of mouthpieces or whatever. This seemes like a pretty good idea not only to loosen up folks' idea of orchestra music, but to help concert-goers feel truly invested in what they'd heard.
This always worked well for us, too (obviously in a smaller way), but I think the board was always afraid that with a couple o' drinks in 'em, the players might REALLY say what they thought of the [music director, conductor, soloist, viola section]
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:26 am
by Philip Jensen
I attended a Jazz concert last night (Ahmad Jamal - Free!!!) and I thought about the difference in that audience versus that of the symphony. Any solo of any length was immediately followed by applause. Warranted yes, but too long some times, in my opinion, as the trio kept on playing. Contrast this with the typical symphony audience, where heaven forbid you even think of applauding between movements, and unthinkable after a solo passage, even if it was totally amazing and you were deeply moved. Yet these same people are the ones who think the orchestra musicians should be more animated?
I've played dixie and oompah gigs to a range of audiences. Some were like pulling teeth to get any response from. It certainly is hard to get ones self into a great groove when the audience is sitting there like a bunch ofwet blankets. Others were really into it and having a great time, and we in turn had a great time too. Maybe those who think the musicians aren't animated enough should have their "in seat" performance critiqued.
Philip " Hoping his 2:00 meeting is short so he can catch part of Howard Johnson's materclass today" Jensen
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:46 am
by tubajoe
Philip Jensen wrote:I attended a Jazz concert last night (Ahmad Jamal - Free!!!) and I thought about the difference in that audience versus that of the symphony.
This thread is totally along the same lines as the thread about restarting during a performance.
Ahmad is a very engaging performer -- as is his entire band (his bass player Jim Cammack is one of my favs... and has played with lots of tuba players...)
It's funny... what the writer of the article may have been picking up on this intense aloof "stoicism" that Amercian symphonic peformers just love to exhude, both off and on stage (those of you who have worked in that world know EXACTLY what I am talking about!!) I've heard aspiring players even talk about it -- on how you "have to be that way" to succeed...
Fortunately, musically, the CSO is an
incredibly engaging orchestra that will put their collective b*lls on the line, especially if it is music or for a conductor that they like. They have an amazing ability to take big risks during performance and push it right to the edge... I always really enjoyed listening to that. It's a magical thing that you cant get on a recording!!
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:34 pm
by Steve Marcus
tubajoe wrote:Ahmad is a very engaging performer ...It's funny... what the writer of the article may have been picking up on this intense aloof "stoicism" that Amercian symphonic peformers just love to exhude, both off and on stage (those of you who have worked in that world know EXACTLY what I am talking about!!) I've heard aspiring players even talk about it -- on how you "have to be that way" to succeed...
For stoicism, how about Diana Krall? Even with her stone-faced vocal and piano delivery, she is extremely popular and successful. Is it because she is very skilled with solid jazz chops? Is it because she's an attractive woman? Or does passion come through
despite her nonchalant demeanor on stage?
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:04 pm
by tubajoe
Steve Marcus wrote:
For stoicism, how about Diana Krall? Or does passion come through despite her nonchalant demeanor on stage?
Yup. I think that stoicism, regardless, is what the article was picking up upon.
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:09 pm
by windshieldbug
The music is what speaks in the classical medium.
And the chances one takes to convey
the music!
I don't hear people who go to an art gallery complaining that the art on the wall is neither moving nor emoting! Perhaps they should. And during an opera, the singers should not convince audiences with their roles, but rather their affectedness...
