Pictures of an Exhibition: Greatest Orch Piece ever written

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:06 am

yeah,once the bydlo movement is over,its fun...

NickJones · Post by **NickJones** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:10 am

It's a good piece not the greatest though falls down for me because of the following reasons

1. It was originally written for Piano , then arranged by Ravel , to me it's like the Elgar Howarth Arrangement of Pictures for Brass Band or 10 piece Brass group ,I have played the ravel , and both elgar howarth arrangements , however impressive they all are , it's not the original piano version , just my thoughts, same with Verdi and Berlioz it's good to use the original instrumentation to understand and have an idea of what the composer intended.
2. I really enjoy Russian Music ( I think we have a russian music concert later on this year) , but there are more emotive pieces ( slow mov Tchick 4 , Rachmaninov Symph 2 , Shotchavovich and Prokoviev Symphonies , ) , saying that it's all good.

dtemp · Post by **dtemp** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:07 am

Super Smooth wrote:Well, certainly the original "Pictures" for piano is a good piece. Ravel took it and made it into great piece when he orchestrated it!

I like the piano version better than the Ravel orchestration.

d(preparing for flames)temp

Onebaplayer · Post by **Onebaplayer** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:12 pm

I also lean towards russian music. Last weekend I had the extreme luck to see SF symphony play all shostakovich: Festive overture, piano concerto, and symphony no. 5. Festive overture almost killed me. I'm not sure if rostropovich is my favorite conductor for shostakovich, but SF is my favorite brass section. Jeff nailed the whole concert. Festive had the normal brass section (1 tuba, 3 trombones, 4 trumpets, 4 horns) and then up on the sides they had 4 more horns, 3 trumpets and 3 trombones. Then they played loud, in tune, etc. I don't know of any pictures sections that are that awesome. Not just because there were a lot of them, the music at those points where they all played was equally amazing.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:37 pm

Youi're just saying this because Beethoven 9 doesn't have a tuba part.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:56 pm

the elephant wrote:
Chuck(G) wrote:Youi're just saying this because Beethoven 9 doesn't have a tuba part.

Mahler says it does. (Since we are talking about arrangements . . . )

Has anyone ever played the Mahler settings?

I'm guessing that the tacet spaces are very wide indeed and that the bulk of the playing is around "Seid umschlungen, Millionen" with the basses.

Steve Marcus · Post by **Steve Marcus** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:58 pm

There are so many different orchestrations of Pictures that it is possible (and indeed such has been conducted by Leonard Slatkin) to have a performance with each section orchestrated by someone else!

I like the piano version better than the Ravel orchestration.

You can have your cake and eat it, too. There is a "piano concerto" version of Pictures by Lawrence Leonard(?) that appears on a Cala CD.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:20 pm

To me, Pictures is interesting because of the orchestration. Vaughan Williams said that he learned from Ravel how to orchestrate in "points of color".

The original piano version reveals the underlying architecture of the music. But I find that the architecture of this particular work is only moderately interesting.

I've heard several other arrangements, and to me they missed Ravel's color. Interestingly, the Hindsley band arrangement of Ravel's orchestral arrangement is quite good, so Ravel's concept holds up even when transcribed for other instruments.

There's no way it has the integrated structure of many symphonic works, including Prokofiev's 5th, Tchaikovsky's 5th, Beethoven's 9th (or 5th, or 7th), Vaughan Williams 4th (or 6th), Shostakovich's 5th, Mahler's 5th, Brahms's 2nd, and on and on.

Maybe Mussorgsky just didn't live long enough. It would seem from the above list that it takes most symphonists four or five tries to hit a stride.

Rick "who could only opine about 'best' having heard all possible contenders" Denney

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:50 pm

To my ears, the Ravel orchestration, while very lush, doesn't sound Russian enough. I like the Sergei Gortschakow version for its "Russianess".

BTW, has anyone heard the Mekong Delta version?

JayW · Post by **JayW** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:26 pm

I have to agree with Chuck on the Gortchakov arrangement.....it has something that the Ravel doesn't. To me at least when you compare them side by side.

THE TUBA · Post by **THE TUBA** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:22 pm

Onebaplayer wrote:I also lean towards russian music. Last weekend I had the extreme luck to see SF symphony play all shostakovich: Festive overture, piano concerto, and symphony no. 5. Festive overture almost killed me. I'm not sure if rostropovich is my favorite conductor for shostakovich, but SF is my favorite brass section. Jeff nailed the whole concert. Festive had the normal brass section (1 tuba, 3 trombones, 4 trumpets, 4 horns) and then up on the sides they had 4 more horns, 3 trumpets and 3 trombones. Then they played loud, in tune, etc. I don't know of any pictures sections that are that awesome. Not just because there were a lot of them, the music at those points where they all played was equally amazing.

I find myself partial to the Russians too. You should also try the fairly new Valery Gergiev Shostakovich Symphonies with the Kirov Orchestra from the Marinsky (sp?) Theatre. I have their recordings of Shosto 4,5,7, and 9. Their tuba player does a fine job, as does all of the brass. Reccently I have been addicted to the "invasion theme" in the first movement of Symph. 7. I believe Shostokovich volunteered as a fire-fighter during the siege of Lenningrad (or was it Stalingrad-I get the two mixed up

). Shostokovich, Mussorgsky, Tchaikovski, Rimsky, Prokofiev, Borodin, all good stuff...

-> Also try the James DePriest Shostokovich stuff with the Oregon Symphony. Jatik Clark=

Easty621 · Post by **Easty621** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:40 pm

It's surprising Bruckner hasn't been mentioned here and his greatest work symphony #7.

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:27 pm

If the Gortchakov setting is the one, which has two tubas and where all the horns play the Bydlo in unisono, then I have played it (as 4th horn).

The programming by the conductor was a protest against the Ravel setting, which is brilliant, but which turns Russian profoundness into French superficial elegance. Ravel even edits in the form. At the micro level with odd additional notes and at the macro level by omitting one of the Promenades.

I have attended a performance with the DRO and Celibidache of the Ravel version over 30 years ago. It was preceded by Ravelâ€™s Gaspar la Nuit. The performances were marvellous and really great to listen to.

However the side-by-side listening to an original piece by Ravel and the Ravel Pictures revealed, how much Ravel had made his Picture version his own music.

The Gortchakov is much less elegant. And it has an odd instrumentation trait, which I never have heard anywhere else.

The 1st and 2nd trumpets work closely together, whereas the 3rd trumpet takes its own soloist road much of the time. And no, it was not a bad player.

Having 8 horns playing the Bydlo perfectly in unisono was quite an experience. Not as warm as the lone eupher, but an ox wagon loaded with intensity.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:34 pm

Easty621 wrote:It's surprising Bruckner hasn't been mentioned here and his greatest work symphony #7.

It's probably because Bruckner's more fun to play than to listen to. From the cheap seats, he just seems to go on and on and on...

(Yeah, I know--I'm a cultural Philistine

But a single movement that's more than 20 minutes long? You could pack a Haydn symphony into that! )

THE TUBA · Post by **THE TUBA** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:35 pm

Easty621 wrote:It's surprising Bruckner hasn't been mentioned here and his greatest work symphony #7.

I like his 4th better.

Z-Tuba Dude · Post by **Z-Tuba Dude** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:26 am

Chuck(G) wrote:I like the Sergei Gortschakow version for its "Russianess".

Does anyone know of a professional recording of the Gortschakow?

quinterbourne · Post by **quinterbourne** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:36 am

Yes, Bruckner 4 is one of his best symphonies, actually it was his first successful one. Very idiomatic part writing.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:21 am

Z-Tuba Dude wrote:
Chuck(G) wrote:I like the Sergei Gortschakow version for its "Russianess".
Does anyone know of a professional recording of the Gortschakow?

Here's the one that I have:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000 ... nce&n=5174

It's also available on a track-by-track basis for MP3 download from several sites.

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:51 am

Z-Tuba Dude wrote:Does anyone know of a professional recording of the Gortschakow?

http://www.sazuma.com/showdcd.php3?dcd_id=GNBC-4033

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

LoyalTubist · Post by **LoyalTubist** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:23 am

I saw the title on this discussion and had to laugh. Pictures at an Exhibition is not an orchestral piece, but an arrangement. Growing up in this area, I spent a lot of time at the University of Redlands, although I never attended the school as a postsecondary student. One of the faculty members there, the late Barney Childs, had a terrific impact on my life and my perception of music. He was of the belief that music should be played in exactly the form as the composer intended it. He hated arrangements, transcriptions, and anything else that wasn't "OEM." I don't think he was alive when we started using that term, but you get the idea.

Actually, I don't mind arrangements or transcriptions--I have written a few in my time, mainly for band and tuba ensemble.

As far as my nomination for best original orchestral work of all time, I like Tchaikovsky's Sixth Symphony. Except for the "march" movement, it's a very difficult piece to pull off.

TubeNet

Pictures of an Exhibition: Greatest Orch Piece ever written

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