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The 3301 is 4 piston; the 3302 is 4 piston+1 rotor. Unless BM has gotten a little crazy with the times, you've got a 3301. It's the same horn as the VMI 3301. "Schmidt" is what's known as a stencil brand.

I've tried only one, but found it to be a very nice horn and probably worth the asking price, assuming that yours hasn't been knocked too far out of whack.

Clean the valves by washing them with a bit of dishwashing (NOT dishwasher) detergent and warm water; do the same for the casings. Try a nice light oil like Al Cass and see if that doesn't improve things.

FWIW, WWBW wants about $5,000 for the same instrument in new condition.

Personally, I use Roche-Thomas. Clear, odorless, colorless, lasts forever, CHEAP -- WWBW has a 16 oz bottle for the price of two of everybody else's 1 to 2 oz bottles, So I can give my Besson comp valves a good wash. I only have to re-oil about every two weeks or so, and that's in spite of the fact I tend to put a lot of water through the horn as a play, even to the point I have to drain my comp loops.

iiipopes wrote:Personally, I use Roche-Thomas. Clear, odorless, colorless, lasts forever, CHEAP -- WWBW has a 16 oz bottle for the price of two of everybody else's 1 to 2 oz bottles, So I can give my Besson comp valves a good wash. I only have to re-oil about every two weeks or so, and that's in spite of the fact I tend to put a lot of water through the horn as a play, even to the point I have to drain my comp loops.

I've never been able to tell the difference between Roche-Thomas "big bottles" and ultra-pure lamp oil. They look the same, smell the same, and seem to have the same viscosity. The big difference IMOHO is that RT comes with a dispenser top. A half-gallon of ultra-pure lamp oil can be had for less than the price of a RT 16 oz bottle.

Now, here's an OT question for you oil experts out there.

Why isn't valve oil packaged in opaque or at least dark-colored bottles? The stuff does degrade in the bottle if exposed to sunlight--I've seen this will all petroleum-based oils and even seen this (and had it confimed by Nanette Kappus) with a synthetic like BiNak.

I'm considering cleaning out an old Loctite or TriFlow bottle and using it to dispense valve oil.

Chuck(G) wrote: Now, here's an OT question for you oil experts out there.

Why isn't valve oil packaged in opaque or at least dark-colored bottles? The stuff does degrade in the bottle if exposed to sunlight--I've seen this will all petroleum-based oils and even seen this (and had it confimed by Nanette Kappus) with a synthetic like BiNak.

I'm considering cleaning out an old Loctite or TriFlow bottle and using it to dispense valve oil.

If I were a betting man, I would say marketing has more to do with it than anything else. Consumers like clear bottles so they can see what they are getting. We package our clear adhesive in clear squeeze tubes for that reason. Contractors, on the other hand, don't care. Our clear in 10 oz cartridges is packaged in a standard fiber/foil cartridge.

Chuck(G) wrote:Why isn't valve oil packaged in opaque or at least dark-colored bottles?
...
I'm considering cleaning out an old Loctite or TriFlow bottle and using it to dispense valve oil.

Or you could cover the bottle with a few turns of duct tape -- unless you're also wanting a smaller bottle.

But where do you keep your oil? In a case, bag, or drawer, probably. I keep mine in a gig-bag, getting it out for about a minute each time I sit down to play; so it's only exposed to light for maybe 5 minutes per week.

FWIW, I assume the clear bottles are probably so you can see the color/clarity/quantity on the shelf. I also think I'd spill it more often if I couldn't see the oil-level in the bottle when I tip it.
______________________________
Joe Baker, who thinks a clear 16oz bottle is juuuust right!

TubaTuck wrote:I just picked up a "rent to own" horn from Brook Mays music.

Its a Schmidt, either a 3301 or 3302 BBb. Does anyone know how to tell the difference between the two models.

If it has four valves, it's a 3301. Have it cleaned and oil the valves every time you use it. Don't worry about the dents--even with small dents that is an excellent price for a 3301.

F. Schmidt is Brook Mays's house label for instruments made by VMI. The Schmidt 3301 is identical to a VMI 3301 and very similar if not identical to a B&S PT-2P. It's a very worth instrument and that's a very good price.

Try Richard's Miraphone before you decide, however. They are different in the way they play, and both excellent instruments.

MUCH better than a three-valve Besson!

Rick "who has played a 3301 recently and thought it excellent" Denney

Joe Baker wrote:But where do you keep your oil? In a case, bag, or drawer, probably. I keep mine in a gig-bag, getting it out for about a minute each time I sit down to play; so it's only exposed to light for maybe 5 minutes per week.

FWIW, I assume the clear bottles are probably so you can see the color/clarity/quantity on the shelf. I also think I'd spill it more often if I couldn't see the oil-level in the bottle when I tip it.

...and where does your local music store keep the valve oil? On a shelf next to a southwest-facing storefron window? I keep a bottle in my practice room out in the open as a reminder to oil.

How about a nice brown-tinted plastic bottle?

I do admit I have a small bottle of oil that is so old the oil is starting to look like a specimen, but it still does not smell, and the oil is still good! I agree that a colored bottle would be a good thing, like the bottles and drippers that things like eye drops, ear drops, tincture of iodine, etc. come in, but not necessarily a recycled or reused bottle, as traces may linger even after "thorough" cleaning.

TubaTuck wrote:I just picked up a "rent to own" horn from Brook Mays music.

Its a Schmidt, either a 3301 or 3302 BBb. Does anyone know how to tell the difference between the two models.

I just returned to playing (today, as a matter fact) after a 26-year absence, but I can still get a nice, full tone out of this horn.

The valve action is a little bit laggy-any suggestions?

Its got some small dents, some laquer wear and some scratches, but, overall seems sound. They'll sell me this horn for slightly under $2,000. Based on my research this seems like a fair price. Any opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Scott Tucker

I would be a little suspect of this horn from the standpoint that the price seems too good especially in light of the fact that Brook Mays is in the business of knowing what an instrument is worth and the fact that I suspect many of the dog horns end up as rentals. Every line of horns is going to have a dog or two and some will have a lot of them. No disrespect to you Scott, but a seller of horns trying to unload a dog probably is going to aim it at somebpdy least likely to be able to tell and that is more likely going to be a new player or somebody just coming back after a long absense.

This could be an excellent horn and a great buy, but my advice is find somebody who can play and have them try it and give you some advice before you buy it. If you don't know anybody why not take a lesson with a local instructor or university prof. and at the same time have them play it.

As far as Rick Denny's bias against 3-valve Bessons I suspect he either was bit by one as a small child or is speaking evil of them to keep the prices down so he can buy them all and hoard them in his basement or motorhome!

Some of us on this board find the old top of the line compensating Bessons to be outstanding horns with lousy ergnomics. They were also built like tanks.

Chuck(G) wrote:...and where does your local music store keep the valve oil? On a shelf next to a southwest-facing storefron window?

No, it's in a dimly lit display counter (the place is a dive -- seriously, you'd have to see it to believe it: dark, dirty, and EVERYTHING is behind the counter). But in any case, putting it into another bottle after you get home will have no effect on what happens to it before I buy it.

I've actually started buying lamp oil from Walmart -- clear plastic, but under flourescents, not sunlight. Now that you mention it, that bottle (from which I refill my 16 oz valve oil bottle) IS on my dresser at home -- I should put it into a darkened cabinet, I guess; but I've never had valve oil go bad on me before so I never thought about it (and really am not all that worried).

But I can see how, if you're going to leave it out, you might want it to be in an opaque container. Shucks, maybe you should get some sort of decorative bottle for it if it's going to be left in plain sight!
___________________________
Joe Baker, whose OCD won't allow him to forget to oil his valves.

tofu wrote:As far as Rick Denny's bias against 3-valve Bessons I suspect he either was bit by one as a small child or is speaking evil of them to keep the prices down so he can buy them all and hoard them in his basement or motorhome!

In the thread where the Besson was being discussed with Mr. Tuck, the instrument was definitely not a three-valve compensator, which I agree can be really excellent.

I played a plastic sousaphone throughout school, except in all-city band, where a 3-valve Besson was provided for me. I played another one in college. And then I played one as an adult as my comeback horn--and instrument given to me by my old band director because doing so was less work than carrying it out to the dumpster. I had it repaired, but all of them could barely play in tune with all the slides all the way in, and even then they were difficult to manage.

And, yes, the ergonomics are truly dreadful on those instruments.

I sold my Stratford (actually traded it for a valve trombone) when I bought my Sanders/Cerveny, which was a vastly better instrument. The Miraphone that replaced that was better still, especially after the overhaul. I don't miss all those stuffy and out-of-tune notes on the student-model Besson.

Rick "no positive threat to the prevailing price of student-model Bessons" Denney

Rick -- it is truly saddening to me that you had such bad experiences with Besson 3-valve comps. I started to post a long entry about my horn, but I'll start a new thread instead.

all valve problems can be fixed(or replaced)if you're in a good enough financial position.If you can get a 3301 for 2k,you're in a good enough financial position...

If the tone and intonation are otherwise fine, any perceived resistance and slow valves can be dealt with:
1) Send it in for a chem soak (ultrasonic, preferably), and have the tech look at the valves. At worst, a little lapping of the rotors or burnishing of the casings might be all it needs.
2) On tubas, a lot of perceived resistance or lack thereof may be in the leadpipe taper, including this one. It may not be as long, being piston valve, as all traditional german/czech style rotaries, but it will still be long. Make sure it's free of dents and any obstructions or squatter residents or critters, whether visible or microscopic.
3) Most older tubas like the 3301 you are renting will have the same bore through the entire valve block, instead of graduating the bore as with some newer models. I don't know if the Miraphone you tried has a graduated bore; it probably doesn't. But the standard Miraphone bore is @ 19.5mm or .770 inches, and the 3301 is probably a 19 mm bore, or @ .750 inches. This may also have something to do with the perceived resistance, and it is a personal thing - some people like the resistance, other like it more free blowing; hence the optional leadpipes available on a couple of Rudy Meinl models and the new Miraphone 1292. My Besson has "only" a .730 bore, but the lead pipe is so short, it is the equivalent of a .750 or even larger bore of a tuba with a longer leadpipe.

Good luck! Hang in there! Glad to read that it's coming back as quickly as it is!

iiipopes wrote:Rick -- it is truly saddening to me that you had such bad experiences with Besson 3-valve comps. I started to post a long entry about my horn, but I'll start a new thread instead.

Non-comps. Non-comps. Non-comps. Non-comps.

There were NO student-grade compensators. I had never seen in person a 3-valve compensator until I was in my 40's.

Rick "is there an echo in here?" Denney

Rick -- I guess I misread your post -- again. I didn't see a 3-valve comp in person either until I got mine last year. I'm 44. I need to go edit something now in another thread....

TubaTuck wrote:I have real concerns about the valve action on this Schmidt.

The valves on the Schmidt at the standard Meinl-Weston Big Valves, and they are fine (unless they have been damaged). Sticking valves are either caused by not yet being broken in (more below), dirt, or lack of oil.

Dirt is a distinct possibility. Rental horns are often not played by people who brush their teeth before playing, and I wonder how thoroughly BM cleaned it before it came to you. Pull out the first valve and stick your finger in one of the knuckle openings inside the valve casing. Green slime? Time for a cleaning.

You've already heard about oiling. The specific oil is not as important as its frequent application. Do it every time you play.

The broken-in part is a little more complex. Bloke once wrote about sticky pistons fresh from the factory, and attributed the cause to normal oxidation inside the casing. The oxidation layer is needed to prevent further oxidation, but when the oxidation forms it's not completely smooth. Eventually, the valve will polish the oxidation layer inside the casing and things will work fine after that. Trying to mechanically polish that layer just removes it, forcing you to start the process over again. Just be patient with it and keep oiling those valves. I'm sure Joe will jump in here if he wants to add something.

Rick "thinking a lesson from a local pro is a really good idea, and could include an evaluation of the Schmidt" Denney

All right! -- Get a tuba, get a gig right out of the box! Great! Tell us how 1st rehearsal goes!