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First - I've noticed that I always sound "better" when playing something new (and "better" again when switching back to the old). It has to do with paying more attention. Many people have commented on how good they sound on the first day back from a short break (a week or less).

Second - tubas are expensive, but mouthpieces are cheap. Splurge and buy the second mouthpiece. Both of the mouthpieces you mentioned are fairly standard items and lots of people sound good on one, or the other, or both.

After 25 years off, you need at least a month in the practice room before it makes any sense at all being picky about mouthpieces (or even tubas!)

Just play the dadgum horn!

Take the F Schmidt back to the second store and try all the combinations at once.

Tubaryan12 wrote:Take the F Schmidt back to the second store and try all the combinations at once.

Excellent idea - on the first anniversary of his comeback. Doing that today is a waste of gasoline.

Tubaryan12 wrote:Take the F Schmidt back to the second store and try all the combinations at once.

Probably a good idea if you have time, because a really big difference between them may mean there's something wrong with the Schmidt, maybe even something they could spot.

You'll probably be sorry if you become really committed to the "own" part of "rent-to-own", though. Probably anything you buy at this point would be "buy-to-sell", too.

It could actually be as simple as the size and accoustics of the room you tried the 186 vs the Schmidt. More than likely it is a combination of horn, mouthpiece, room and the fact that you are starting to be more acclimated to playing again. I personally think you will find it takes several months to really start to get your chops back.

I find it takes me several months just to really get to know a horn and that's without trying to get my chops back at the same time. Horns that I really liked initially later on just weren't the one and on the other hand horns that I didn't like initially would later on become favorites because I learned how to get the most out of the instrument and explore it's capbilities fully.

I have an Eb that I bought cheap at a violin auction, had it gone over, played it, didn't like it and put it away.
Pulled it out two years later with the intent to sell it, tried a much different mouthpiece in it and now just love the horn. What changed? - perhaps I'm a better player now, took a different approach to playing the horn or perhaps just the mouthpiece made the difference or perhaps the fact that I spent a significant amount of time with it versus the prior time I tried it and didn't like it so I put it away approach.

My advice before you spend a lot of money is be patient and perhaps buy a starter horn such as a used 186 which if you keep it in good condition you will be able to sell it for probably what you bought it for should you decide you need something different in a horn.

Just my .02 cents.

E: all of the above.

Different mouthpieces do sound different on different horns.
Different rooms boost or attenuate different frequencies, depending on size and furnishing.

For example, my Besson with my Wick 1 sounds alright at home, great in the band hall, unmatched in the university auditorium, and not worth a $#!+ in the rehearsal room of the shrine band, which is small, completely carpeted and acoustically tiled to be as dead as a doornail.

My Besson with my Kelly 18 sounds nasal at home, thin in the bigger rooms, and OK in the small rehearsal room.

My souzy loses definition everywhere with the Wick 1, and sounds all the way from passable to good everywhere with the Kelly 18, including outdoors.

iiipopes wrote:E: all of the above.

F. The Princeton Band

One possibility I've not seen anyone mention is that the Bach MP, having a rounder rim, doesn't give you as much assistance articulating (starting) the note. When I started back after an extended layoff, I used a Helleburg in rehearsals and a Bach for some of my home practice for several months, until I could articulate equally well with them; then I began my comparisons for "best" (and wound up with a Schilke 67C4, which has some similarities to each of those MPs, but a rim that's different from either).

The price of $2000 is, as someone else noted, a steal for that horn; UNLESS there's something wrong with it. I'd suggest having a competent player try it out, and see if they think it's a decent instrument. If so, I'd buy it. If you decide six months from now to sell it, you'll have no trouble doing so (all you'd have to do is call ME!). That is, again, assuming there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it.

Best of luck getting back into the saddle!
______________________________
Joe Baker, who is swinging back toward more trombone playing these days, and finding his own set of rusty techniques.

sloan wrote:Second - tubas are expensive, but mouthpieces are cheap. Splurge and buy the second mouthpiece. Both of the mouthpieces you mentioned are fairly standard items and lots of people sound good on one, or the other, or both.

Tubaryan12 wrote:Take the F Schmidt back to the second store and try all the combinations at once.

Excellent idea - on the first anniversary of his comeback. Doing that today is a waste of gasoline.

That's just the cheap bastard in me . A couple of gallons of gas is cheaper than having an extra mouthpiece you won't use.

TubaTuck wrote:Here's my delimma: I truly don't know how much of the improvement I can attribute to the horn and how much was the mouthpiece.

1. Give yourself some time, maybe a month, just to get used to playing again.

2. Pick either of those mouthpieces. Both have been used by pros, and both are the archetypes from which other mouthpieces are designed. Both work fine, and the differences in them should be of no concern to you right now, unless one of them causes pain on your face.

3. Always compare tubas first with the same mouthpiece. Furthermore, that mouthpiece should be one that is familiary to you. See #1. You may eventually try to optimize the mouthpiece for a given instrument before deciding on it, but you have to start somewhere.

4. I own a Miraphone 186 and have play-tested a 3301 recently and for an extended session. They are quite different, but they are both excellent. Do not make this decision without either having a teacher present to help you evaluate the two instruments (or at least listen to you play them) or without developing yourself enough to have a better sense of what you are hearing.

5. Don't buy a tuba solely or even primarily based on the way it feels. Buy it on the basis of the results you get with it, and the efficiency with which you get those results. The understanding of that, too, takes a little bit of time to develop.

Rick "who suggests just enjoying the horn you have in your hands for a while" Denney

Actually, I agree with having another mouthpiece, as I posted earlier, depending on the horn, place and ensemble. I have what for all practical purposes is a helleberg in the Wick 1 and a Bach 18 in the Kelly 18. The reasons I chose those two particular mouthpieces, are

1) the Wick was designed for the Besson, and in my experience gave the best tone, intonation and response overall,

2) the Kelly is for mostly outdoor use of the souzy, although it is a good enough mouthpiece for concert use,

3) they both have the same sized rim, cup diameter and throat, with the difference being in the contour and depth of the cup -- the Wick more funnel and deeper for a mellower broader tone, and the Kelly more rounded for more core and projection. This keeps the transition between the two a non-issue, as in spite of the differences in materials they both feel fine to my embouchure.

The only hitch is that they are different shank sizes, with the Wick being the older smaller shank like a lot of American Eb tubas, so if I want to interchange them, I have to either get an adaptor bit for my souzy (of which I lost a bid on eBay for one!) or get a 1L, and get another Kelly and slightly shorten the shank and mill it down to fit the Besson receiver.

In other words: have both a Bach style rounded cup style and a deep funnel helleberg style in the rim you prefer. You WILL use both of them!

As stated by someone else in this topic, mouthpieces are a lot cheaper than tubas.

Find a mouthpiece that feels great of your face, I mean cup diameter and rim. Then after you are used to your new mouthpiece (maybe a week or perhaps longer), go play different horns in different rooms and get the horn that matches the sound that is in your head; or perhaps the sound of someone you really like to hear play.

Take your time! Rushing into this can be expensive and may leave you feeling like there was something better out there you didn't get to try.

Also, keep an open mind (pistons/rotars valves, american/german style, small/medium/big horns). You may discover something you didn't even know was there that makes you sound like a million bucks; give all aspects of mouthpiece/tuba trying out an equal opportunity.

TubaTuck wrote:They provided a Helleberg mouthpiece with a smaller cup than the Bach 18.

There are LOTS of "Helleberg" mouthpieces out there, but in general: a mouthpiece with a 'smaller' cup will always be considered more of a 'solo' mouthpiece than where you started, and likely be more nible to get around on. I'd buy one of those mouthpieces, take it home, and try it on your horn.

The best that can happen is that you'll have the same experience with your horn. So switch.

If it's a wash, then you have 2 mouthpieces that you can switch when the situation arises.

Worst is, you find that is was the mouthpiece/horn combination, and you still will have something to compare to as you progress.

Mouthpieces are a WHOLE LOT cheaper than horns, and horns you need to try with different mouthpieces in different settings to be sure.

You might want to consider getting a Kelly mouthpiece or two. They are less expensive ($30), and probably a bit more forgiving on new tender chops, allowing you to get better, rather than just get tired, during your relearning period. "I didn't seem to get as tired" seems to be a common thread among people that try Kellys. If you think the Helleberg was an improvement, a Kellyberg might be just the ticket. If you want to stay on the cheap, there are also a lot of mouthpieces on ebay, on any given day. Two cents from this amateur who's now been playing for 11 years after taking 25 off.

windshieldbug wrote:

TubaTuck wrote:They provided a Helleberg mouthpiece with a smaller cup than the Bach 18.

There are LOTS of "Helleberg" mouthpieces out there, but in general: a mouthpiece with a 'smaller' cup will always be considered more of a 'solo' mouthpiece than where you started, and likely be more nible to get around on. I'd buy one of those mouthpieces, take it home, and try it on your horn.

I love my Schilke 66 in this regard.

So just stick with it!