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What kind of Tuba is it, if I may ask?

rcguy111 wrote:I have just recently switched insraments from an alto sax to a tuba and i am looking into getting a mouth piece for the tuba. What I would like to know is how do the dimensional qualities of a mouth piece affect the tone or range of the horn?

Here's my "back-of-the-envelope" version.

The most important measurements are cup volume and backbore size. There are other measurements and features - but these mostly affect how the mouthpiece feels - not so much how it sounds.

As cup volume INCREASES, pitch DECREASES.

As backbore size INCREASES, pitch INCREASES.

So...(so far) if you increase BOTH cup volume and backbore size (by the right amounts, the pitch stays constant. BUT...BUT...BUT...it turns out that something else changes.

As backbore size INCREASES, "slots" tend to WIDEN, and (perhaps) the pitch RANGE widens. It feels as if you get less help in the middle of the range, but a bit more at the extremes.

There's more (MUCH more) - but it quickly becomes Byzantine, not to mention Baroque.

One hint: you can judge the approximate pitch (at the center of the range) by "popping" the mouthpiece against your palm. This is really only useful for comparing two mouthpieces that you have in your hands at the same time.

I also have a question, if i run into using a mouthpiece with a way deeper cup than im used to I often play flat and have a TON of trouble getting it back up without blowing my lungs out......anyway to adjust to this? Or is it just practice and air.


BTW Welcome to TubeNet Rcguy111

[quote="ben" ...
Check out Fletcher and Rossing - The Physics of Musical Insruments
Benade - Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics

These books will help you understand about how mouthpieces affect the horn, but not which one to buy. FWIW[/quote]

They will if you do all the exercises at the end of each chapter.

F&R, in particular, has a couple of select pages that contain several key equations. If you understand those equations, you will be a long way towards selecting the right mouthpiece.

The bad news is that you may need to read the other x00 pages in order to understand those equations.

I know that Rick Denney knows those two books. Perhaps he'll explain them to us?

Mr. Chairman - a point of order if I may:

There is still a question on the floor that has not been addressed: I belive one of the honorable senior members asked what kind of tuba it is, and there has been no response. I would ask the chair to declare the assembly out of order and call it to order to recognize the junior member for an answer to the question.

Thank you.

That's the perfect tuba - all mouthpieces sound equally good with it.

I wouldn't use a Vincent Bach 30E. It's really too small.

When I went into high school, we all used the Vincent Bach 24AW. It looks bigger than it is.

Yeah -- what sloan said. Try a bunch of mouthpieces, pick the one that feels good, and go for it. The standard mouthpiece that came with the horn is as good as any for starting out.

I think you will find (in very general terms of course) that the larger the mouthpiece, the easier the low register will be and vise versa.

The tone will also sound much broader with a larger mouthpiece, but then you must be careful not to get too large that it will adversely affect the pitch as has been mentioned. A larger mouthpiece will also have less resistance and let much more air through, so you will need to learn how to control it properly.

OTOH, a smaller mouthpiece piece will have a more focused tone and may be easier to control for a begining student.

Again these are very general concepts and there are always exceptions to the rule, but for most mouthpieces and players, these concepts will hold true.

First try to find a rim size and shape that fits your mouth and "feels good" and then you can look at cup depth and shape (bowl vs. funnel), back bore size, etc later. Most of those other specifications like bowl and back bore, etc. are qualities that more advanced players explore to color their sound one way or another.

For just starting out, I would start with a middle of the road mouthpiece, like a Conn Helleberg or a Bach (or other generic copy)18 or 22 (assuming you are middle or high school aged, if you are younger perhaps a t Conn Helleberg 7B) and then you could go larger or smaller as you see fit.

As was also mentioned most moputhpieces that come with student tubas are like this and are pretty good places to start, assuming it is in decent condition.

ken k

I especially recommend the Kelly 18 because with the slightly rounded cup it will produce more overtones and projection for a souzy outdoors. The Kellyberg has the funnel, which will darken and broaden the tone. The 24AW has a really wide, cushy rim, some people love the comfort, others hate it (like me) because it can get in the way of flexibility. And the 25 is just that, smaller all the way around. Of course, since you are a freshman, your jaw may not have developed to the point of being able to use an 18, so the 25 is alright until you jaw finishes growing. How do I know this? I was a freshman and started on a King fiberglass sousaphone for marching with a King 25 mouthpiece, went to an 18 in college, played a Miraphone in grad school, and now a Wick 1 and a Kelly 18 all these years later.

The 24AW is actually a small mouthpiece.

The way Vincent Bach mouthpiece sizes work, the lower numbers are larger. The 18 has a narrow rim and a shallow cup, but it is larger than the 24AW. The smallest tuba mouthpiece is the 32E. I think the largest was a 2. I don't know what it is now.

I prefer a large mouthpiece now (I use a large Conn Helleberg) because it seems the most flexible for me.

One interesting note: as far as Kelly goes, they have made the cup of their 18 deeper than a Bach 18. It is almost as deep as the Conn Helleberg. But it does still have the rounded bottom, and others as well as I can definitely tell the difference in tone between it and my Wick 1, which also has the Helleberg style cup, but with a Bach-ish rim.

A second interesting note: yes, the 24AW is technically a smaller diameter cup than the 18, but to a lot of people it feels not only more comfortable, but larger due to the much wider rim. This is one example where specs are not the be-all and end-all to picking a tuba mouthpiece. The specs get you in the ball park, or now with so many manufacturers, out of wandering the whole universe to (hopefully!) a single galaxy, so you can try several that are similar and up, down or sideways a notch to help you narrow down to your final choice(s).

iiipopes wrote:One interesting note: as far as Kelly goes, they have made the cup of their 18 deeper than a Bach 18. It is almost as deep as the Conn Helleberg. But it does still have the rounded bottom, and others as well as I can definitely tell the difference in tone between it and my Wick 1, which also has the Helleberg style cup, but with a Bach-ish rim.

A second interesting note: yes, the 24AW is technically a smaller diameter cup than the 18, but to a lot of people it feels not only more comfortable, but larger due to the much wider rim. This is one example where specs are not the be-all and end-all to picking a tuba mouthpiece. The specs get you in the ball park, or now with so many manufacturers, out of wandering the whole universe to (hopefully!) a single galaxy, so you can try several that are similar and up, down or sideways a notch to help you narrow down to your final choice(s).

The rim diameter of the 24 is rather small but the "A" cup is a huge bowl which actually gets wider inside the bowl that at the rim itself. The W notates the wide cushion-style rim.

ken k