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I like the sound of my 6/4 F.

As good as he was (and that was VERY good), I don't want to sound so much like John Fletcher as I do myself. I find it hard enough just trying to sound like me!

In our section of seven, we had 2 BBb, 1CC, 1 Eb and 3 F tubas last year.
This year, same people involved, we come up with 2 BBb, 1CC, 2 Eb (both 3+1 British-style horns) and 2 F instead. The guy who switched from F to Eb used to play a small itsy-bitsy Cerveny F.
By choice of music and interpretation by the director, BOOMBASTIC playing is called for more often than not.

I was impressed by that Eb sound, too. I don´t think it´s that great for traditional alpine music, though, which is REALLY important around here.
You want to be closer to the baritones in that genre.

I personally like MY approach: play F for alpine stuff and CC with most everything else. It´ll produce an even broader sound than Eb, and will stand its ground in the higher regions well enough.

The two instruments come from two different backgrounds and traditions so they are not really related. While many companies made Ebs early on in the 20th century they were mostly really small (and in the US at least) looked upon as student instruments. Kids would start on Eb and "move up" to BBb in high school. I know in England of course there was a different tradition.

People try to find an instrument that fits the sound they want for the situation they are playing in.

ken k

ken k wrote: Kids would start on Eb and "move up" to BBb in high school. I know in England of course there was a different tradition.

Depends "how early" in the 20th century you're talking. "The" tuba for most of the 19th century in the US was the Eb--BBb instruments existed, but were not terribly common--and that extended in many areas well into the period before WW II.

I think BBb didn't come into predominance in schools until sousaphones claimed the territory for marching band.

People try to find an instrument that fits the sound they want for the situation they are playing in.

Now, there, I agree with you!

I would switch to Eb if I could find one I really liked. I found the Willson to be very playable but the sound was much lighter than I expected.

I liked the sound of the Besson I tried but literally could not reach the valves.

MA

I have played Eb tuba as my small instrument for about 30 years. When it came time to learn bass tuba, my then teacher, Paul Krzywicki, had just completed a tour of Japan with the Philadelphia Orchestra and came back with several Yamaha, non-compensating Eb tubas. I was impressed with their sound, intonation, ease of playing and price.

I now play a York, Monster Eb tuba that I have modified to my specifications. It has a .687" valve bore (the original York valves were .659"), with 4, front action pistons and a 5th, flat whole step rotor. It is an incredible tuba. I have used both in the orchestra and for solos on our chamber series with the Hopkins Symphony Orchestra. It is a great tuba. I have never had the urge to switch to the F tuba for my small instrument. I use CC tuba for my contra-bass instrument.

Again, this is really a non-issue question because the two traditions of tubas, rotors in F starting with Wieprecht and Moritz in Prussia @ 1830 to 1840, and piston saxhorns in Eb in France some years after that, developed as parallel traditions. The piston Eb had tended towards brass bands and other ensembles in France and the UK, and the F tuba had tended towards more orchestral use on on the European continent, especially as you head east. Like most everything else in America, there was more British influence than German influence in the first century of this country when it came to brass instrument manufacturing. And again, like most everything in America, the european traditions blurred, synthesized and came out with its own tradition that has gone back and forth.

bloke wrote:
1/ I'd own a comp. Eb if they all weren't such tuning nightmares. I like they way they sound.
2/ I'd own a (not an intonation nightmare) Willson Eb if the sound offered by those tubas was more interesting.
3/ I have a non-traditional Eb instrument that plays in tune quite well and I use it on certain types of jobs. The sound on this particular instrument is direct, concise, and clear (not "big"), so I have to pick and choose where I use it.

bloke "Many many BBb, CC, Eb, and F tubas offer scales that are simply too annoying for me to face on a daily basis. Old 'big-bell' Eb tubas seem to be some of the most 'unique' in this regard. English-style comp-Eb's are a little better in the intonation dept. than most of the big (and small) old American Eb's...but not much better."

Are you saying that F tubas have fewer intonation quirks than Ebs? Based on the discussions I have seen here and other places it sounds like F's have as many or more interesting tuning issues as most Ebs.

I know that for me the Besson 983 is the most in tune tuba I have, although I have heard enough people who have said that they have had challenges with this model.

I followed the Eb to BBb route, and I started in 1968, which wasn't that early in the 20th century. We had a music teacher who played in the Luftwaffe band during WW II--then the band was captured as POWs--he got sick, sent to a hospital, and married the American nurse who took care of him. He taught closely to the way he was taught in Bavaria. Anyway, he started us with a smaller instrument and we worked our way up. Mr. Schmidt retired in 1974.

I would love to play an F tuba. I have never had my grubby fingers on one or heard one played live.
Bloke often says things that make me feel glad I wound up with my 1940 King Eb recording bass with a 24 inch bell.
It has a neat sound and is pitched right for my current lead vocalist.
If you would like to hear it, go to: http://www.johnreno.com/ CDs.htm and click on titles in red.

bloke wrote:
bloke "who would prefer a 3-hour $75 bar gig with a REALLY good band over a 2-hour $175 church gig with a REALLY bad preacher"

Attaboy Bloke! You have your priorities right.

tooter, i'm in your area frequently.you're welcome to toot my B&S f anytime...

Thanks MikeMason, that would be great.
Bloke is correct about the 8th partial (D) being so stinkin' flat on a King.
We were doing a tune in F and I had to insist we change to another key because the D (featured in that tune) was just not happening.

Bob1062 wrote:I would be happy if schools went back to using small Ebs for students,...If only because it would make such instruments available and cheap for doubling hacks like myself.

Something sorta small but with good false tones, 3 (maybe 4) front valves with a long top slide on 1 or 3 (like, no friggin circular tubing on 1!) so I can finally play low A natural, and good intonation.

Wait, does this exist anywhere/anytime?

Conn 12J & 14J

I would steer away from the 14j if you have anything but very small hands. I had one for a while, and it was a great sounding little horn, but even with my small hands there was no comfortable way for my right hand to fit. The tubing was too close to the third valve forcing me to either cramp my hand together so that my pinky was inside or play with my pinky splayed off to the side. Neither was acceptable for anything but the shortest time, which was too bad, because aside from the ergonomics, I really liked that little horn.

Conn 12J:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/Conn12J1955image.html
Conn 14J:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/Conn14J1955image.html
And even more at the Conn Loyalist:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/

I have a McClellan that looks basically just like the 14J. It has a very nice, broad sound but has the intonation quirks that Bloke mentioned above about Eb tubas....the low range is quite flat and the high range is quite sharp, if you've set your tuning slide so the middle range is on pitch.

Personally I find it unplayable due to the pitch problems. If I had a very nimble left hand I suppose I could get used to significant slide pulling, but ...nah.

MA

I assume most people get F tubas because that is the trend. If you raised a 100 people to become tuba players in isolation from the rest of the world... and gave them each a BBb and a CC tuba... I would expect around 50 people to choose CC and 50 people to choose BBb. The same, I assume, would occur with Eb vs F.

One trend I see is that BBb tuba players tend to double on Eb tubas while CC tuba players tend to double on F tubas. I think this is because switching to Eb tuba from CC tuba doesn't give you that much of a "range advantage." It's a minor third CC->Eb compared to the perfect fourth CC->F. When Bb trumpet players want help to play "something high," they will go to an Eb trumpet before the C trumpet.

I do acknowledge that all the other arguments here make sense and are valid, I couldn't agree with them more, I am just offering a different point of view.

harold wrote:Obviously many manufacturers made Eb tubas during the first half of the 20th century. Most professional tubists seem to be playing F tubas now. What happened and why the change?

During the first quarter of the 20th century, there were lots of people buying Eb and BBb tubas, mostly because they were the bass to have (a holdover from the 19th century), the british brass band influence, and because trumpet players who got switched to fill bands could read the bass clef on Eb just like a Bb treble trumpet part (with a slight key signature change). Pro bands (like Sousa, Pryor, etc.) flourished. There were a lot more jobs to be had.

Now most American band players (now amateur) play Bb. Few people studying "legit" in preparation to play British brass band music (which still includes Eb's). Most pro jobs that people "prepare" for are orchestral. Different background entirely. CC & F.

quinterbourne wrote:One trend I see is that BBb tuba players tend to double on Eb tubas while CC tuba players tend to double on F tubas. I think this is because switching to Eb tuba from CC tuba doesn't give you that much of a "range advantage." It's a minor third CC->Eb compared to the perfect fourth CC->F. When Bb trumpet players want help to play "something high," they will go to an Eb trumpet before the C trumpet.

One fallacy, whether on trumpet or tuba, is that a higher pitched horn will let you play higher. More trumpeters are hugely disappointed when then try a piccolo because it does not cause you to play any higher. All it does do is provide one with better support and more accuracy if you can already play there.

Before I could afford an decent F, I regularly used a 1898 Distin Eb that I had whenever the part called for a more compact sound and higher playing in the orchestra. But I still had to play the notes. I never got a "range advantage" unless I used a smaller mouthpiece.

I noticed a difference in the sound, but I wonder how many of the audiences thought it made as large a change as I thought it did.

I never said that it makes you play higher, but just that it helps you play higher. I know that when a trumpet player plays pic, it does not automatically add an octave to their high range... but it does make high range playing easier... hence the "advantage."