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if this is the 4/4 kastul contra grande GG bugle, i know your pain. first off, buy a horn towel and bring it with you EVERYWHERE. you can set it one the towel when your on pavement and polish it with it. secondly, when your carrying the horn you want the bell perfectly perpendicular to the ground, if your not moving you could always "dick it" (let it rest at a 45 degree angle resting with its bell right above your crotch) if your just parading and not playing, grab some of the first valve tubing and let it reast on your right side.and lastly, if your talking about the same horn i am, this is my third year marching with one. PM me if you need more help.



also, impress the kids and TRY THIS http://www.gulfcoastsound.org/news_20050224.html

What you're gonna want to do is go down to your local hardware store and buy some transparent plastic tubing. The diameter should be no more than half an inch. Get enough length to cover the circumference of your bell rim + a bit.

Cut the plastic tubing on one side of the tube lengthwise and wrap that around the rim on your bell. Trim the tubing so it goes all the way around but so there is no excess. Now, you have a scratch protecter for your bell rim - setting your horn down on pavement without scratching it. This will sure beat bringing a towel around with you everywhere.

Either the vinyl tubing or a bell towel would work. You could also make a protector out of cotton T-shirt material with a drawstring or some elastic to keep it on (good for rehearsals, then take it off for performances). Back when girls' tube tops were in vogue, they were a ready-made bell protector.

As far as holding it in front of you, I tend to have mine high, with the bell no lower than waist level, and offset to my left just enough to let me see straight ahead. When it's high enough, you don't really need to lift it into position as much as just make it rotate (plus giving your legs room for high mark time, if needed). The left-side offset also lets the motion remain mostly straight up & down from the shoulder without adding a sideways motion to bring it directly in front of your face.

The 4/4 is pretty much the same size that we've got in the Marine D&B, basically a 2-piston, 1-rotor version of the KCB201 G contra. When we carry ours at our side, we can hold the big pipe right next to the bell to avoid tweaking the valve pipes. The BBb version's layout is pretty different, and I haven't marched with one, but it looks like you'd have to go with the valve pipes. Find the balance point, too, so that the horn can stay level without any effort on your part.

If you haven't marched with a contra-style marching tuba before, spend some time just moving the horn around. Pick it up from the ground in three steps (right hand, then left, then right), move it to & from your shoulder fluidly, move it from the front to your side, etc. Make it habitual enough that you won't have to adjust and re-adjust in each position.

And for heaven's sake, always make sure you're standing up straight. This applies to convertible tubas and sousaphones of any kind. Don't puff out your chest, which will arch your back too far and direct the entire load to your lower spine. Don't lean to the side, either, because that will also hurt your back and impede your breathing. Don't let your elbows collapse inwards; you may develop a habit of resting your left elbow on your torso (very bad in many ways). Always strive for an upright, normal, balanced posture, shoulders relaxed, leadpipe adjusted to reach your face (not the other way around), arms "floating" roughly 30-45 degrees from your torso.

Once you're good with all that, then add the spin. It's a lot easier than it looks.

Good, I tend to snicker at those who bring towels with them, all that effort to bring and set up the towels when simple plastic tubing is on for good.

One thing to be careful about is that moisture can sometimes get under that plastic tubing. This is especially true if you don't empty your main tuning slide and spit comes out your leadpipe onto the bell, it will run under the plastic.

I advise that once every one or two weeks that you remove that plastic and give the surface beneath it a good cleaning.

If you don't, the finish might deteriorate.

i'de go with a horn towel, theres a reason why DCI corps use horn towels

Frank M wrote:Leland,

My horn has a large span of tubing right near the bell, which is a good position for my left hand. I haven't yet found a right hand position besides from just leaving my thumb and pinky in the rings and supporting the weight by the valve cluster. Of course, I'm ultra-paranoid about damaging anything by holding an area that might become distorted.

At what point do you side-carry? Left or right? I do tend to shift my left hand support a bit as my shoulder becomes uncomfortable.

I've noticed that a lot, perhaps even a majority, of contra players lean to the right (with left-shoulder carry); not just the head, but the shoulders and sometimes the upper body.

When the horn's in front ("up-carry", we call it), it's a good idea to have the left hand further away from your body as you described. With the horn in playing position, depending on the horn and the contra line's preference, I've had the left hand on the big pipe at the bottom, or on the smaller pipe on the bottom-outboard side (usually King or Kanstul contras), or on the valve cluster itself.

I grip the valve cluster with my right hand, no fingers in any rings, and holding the valves down so that I don't bend the valve stems. Finger rings on most contras are usually unnecessary, IMO. They're too skinny to trust with all the force they'll see, they encourage using the fingers to support the horn at up-carry, and they encourage more of a "gorilla grip" with the horn in playing position. Leave your finger & thumb out of the rings, even when playing.

Almost everywhere that I've marched, we've carried the contras on the right side when it's down at our sides; it's just easier to bring it up front. When we have time, though, we'll switch it to the left side to stay fresh. I did march one corps for a few years where the hornline carried their horns in the left hand. They also had some vocals & things that involved pointing & gesturing with the right hand during the street beat, so when we brought the horns down after playing, we'd let them swing back and then around front to the left side.

When I say to not lean to the left, I mean that I've seen a number of players -- usually new to the concept -- who lean too far or let themselves stand crooked with their spine in an "S" shape. I had one kid who hoped to join, but he was hurting too badly to return the next camp. He pushed his chest so far forward that all the stress went to his lower back (frankly, I think he would've been in pain even if he marched trumpet).

Do what you can to stand upright and feel as if you didn't have the horn on your shoulder. Turning your upper body to the sides, as if you were marching sideways, would help reinforce that sensation (it's really difficult if you're leaning over somehow).

These are some of the things I've learned in eighteen years of marching contra; I think I'm doing alright by now.

Forgot to add one more carrying position --

We've got one we call the "cradle." Right hand on the valves, left hand at the bottom of the big pipe next to the bell, and the left side of the horn resting against the chest. The most we use it at one time is during our Friday night parades or occasionally in concerts. We haven't used it in street parades in years.

But, it's more comfortable for long periods than carrying it out front, and it's still easy to bring it quickly to playing position. Just flick it to up-carry (preferably catching it with your left hand on the big pipe near your chest) then up to your shoulder; altogether it's usually a two-count move.

If you need pics & vids, let me know.

ONE MORE THING... lol...

If you're breathing correctly, you'll get plenty of moisture beyond the main tuning slide -- and, if you play long enough, you could collect a bunch in the branch beyond the last spit valve, too.

Once you get water past the valve section, you'll begin to throw it around the rest of the horn (and eventually out the bell) each time you snap the horn from playing position to up-carry. It usually takes three or four horn snaps before the bell starts drooling. It's normal, so don't worry about it; just clean it up before the next gig.

hurricane_harry wrote:..... if your not moving you could always "dick it"

I've NEVER considered doing this to ANY of my tubas

I) Get a British military style sling and hold it in front of you, or

II) Borrow a Conn 14k, King 1250 or Reynolds Contempora sousaphone instead. Yes, it's left shoulder, but if you can shoulder the Deg, then the souzy should be no problem: fairly light weight, above average intonation, and you don't have to worry about sitting it down on the bell.

III) Forgive me for the bias, but why would anybody want to use a shoulder tuba, when Sousa and the British have the best two solutions, tried and trued for over a century and a quarter?

iiipopes wrote:III) Forgive me for the bias, but why would anybody want to use a shoulder tuba, when Sousa and the British have the best two solutions, tried and trued for over a century and a quarter?

If that's what they're using, then that's what they're using.

Conversely...

Why would anyone want a sousaphone when it bangs on the hip? Why would anyone want to use an upright tuba when it points a different direction from the rest of the brass?

I guess it should be expected that any post regarding contra-style tubas will draw at least one post like yours. I'm surprised bloke hasn't yet chimed in with his hate for the horn.

You do have at least one point. I understand the British military no longer march with BBb tubas because of risk of back injury. Eb is the order of the day.

As far as sousaphones, where does it hit you on the hip? In playing them for @30 years, I've never had the hip issue, although I have had the shoulder issue and the 26 inch bell can be killer in a wind. I've seen guys actually knocked over by a stiff breeze.

So long as we want that downward pitch extension, we will deal with one or more of these issues. I just believe that the two traditional solutions are better for people who don't bench press on a regular basis.

I haven't had upper body strength until the last few years. I've also seen strong guys have problems with shoulder tubas, and I've seen skinny guys do just fine.

What I'm saying is that it's technique that matters. The advice that I'm trying to give is an attempt to get someone on the path of using the horn correctly.

iiipopes wrote: III) Forgive me for the bias, but why would anybody want to use a shoulder tuba, when Sousa and the British have the best two solutions, tried and trued for over a century and a quarter?

i got a reason!!


BECAUSE ITS A DRUM AND BUGLE CORPS

it's the same reason you don't but a bagpipe in brass quintet

Frank M wrote: I'm trying to figure out how you're gripping the valve section while simultaneously compressing the valves; perhaps my horn is different than yours in that respect.

And of course, just working more with it, becoming more familiar and comfortable slilnging that horn around, has helped a lot.

.....When I learned to relax my death-grip on the valve section, well, it all went away and I could focus on playing.

Perhaps another point to be made about marching tubas and contras is that I've heard a few people mention that they felt that the balance of the horn allows for less tone fluctuation while marching. As you wrote, the sousa is always banging around; I've got two (a Holton "tupperware" and a nicely restored 50s-era Conn 20K), and this seems to be the case.

Also, any photos or vids you have would be welcome (except the spin... I've seen that... )

P.S. Is that a new 197hp Civic Si as your avatar?

Good to hear that it's working better...

For the valve section, it's probably a little different with yours. On mine (and this also applied to a 3-valve 5/4 Kanstul I marched one summer, except that it had the old-style leadpipe that went under the hand), the valve buttons end up pretty much underneath my knuckles.

I started on trombone, and was taught right away to handle the slide between my first two fingertips and thumb. I think that helped remind me to keep my grip light. When I started playing valved instruments, a mild revelation came when someone suggested forming a "C" with my right hand, perching the thumb between the 1-2 valve casings and fingertips flat against the buttons. Much lighter & more nimble that way.

Yeah, one of the things I've preferred about contras is that they're completely isolated from the lower body. That's greatly important when marching sideways, but it's also nice to have that floating/cruising sensation while just going down the street.

I'll dig up what I've got for pics & vids and send an email.

Nah, that's not the new Si in my avatar -- it's a 2002 Si, probably the last "true Si" since it's a hatchback. It's not at 197 hp, at least not yet (although it may be close; measured 158 at the wheels, which is probably 180-190-something at the crank). It's almost finished being modified, having done suspension, brakes, and intake-exhaust bolt-ons; still haven't decided what to do with the motor itself.

Re the Honda:

The next conventional step is to make sure the cylinder head has the same displacement in each of the combustion chambers, then to measure the height of the domes of the pistons to see how much more lift you can give the cam before having to relieve the pistons. After porting the head and intake manifold to equalize the port and cylinder volumes, you then measure the flow of the throttle body to see if you need a spacer between the throttle body and the manifold to keep the velocity of the mixture up so puddling doesn't occur on the floor of the intake manifold. Then to the cam. At that point, profile of the cam depends on your rev range. Off idle to about 5500 you want a fairly short duration cam with little overlap, 2000 to 6 or 7000 rpm you want a longer duration with overlap to keep the volumetric efficiency up, but you lose idle stability and the engine starts "loping." Most street applications require a little less cam than most people think, especially due to the idle characteristics if you live in an area that measures exhaust as part of the yearly inspection and renewal.

OK, how do I know all this? I have a Jaguar E-type that has all of that from the factory, and I helped a guy get a 1971 Mustang Fastback streetable after someone tried to put a 650 Holley on top of a Wieland high-rise, and he couldn't figure out why it was hard to start, and when it finally started, it wouldn't run below 2500 rpm. I told him to get an Edelbrock Performer manifold, and if it didn't work, I'd buy it from him at his cost. Needless to say, finally matching everything up to the correct flow and rpm range -- it ran like a bat out of hell.

Rebuilding the head on my E-type is another reason for my signature.

iiipopes wrote:Re the Honda:

That's a lot of work that, really, other companies are taking care of. There are now at least two companies with cams for the K20A3 engine in my car, with Skunk2 making them in three naturally-aspirated stages (from streetable to race-only) and a fourth profile for boosted engines.

As far as valve timing, overlap, air/fuel, and spark, all of those parameters are already monitored & adjusted by the stock ECU. Reprogramming it via Hondata can help get a little more oomph and raise the redline (adding valvesprings & retainers are nice for peace of mind; building internals can allow up to 9K or so). The still-stock ECU on mine gives it a flat torque curve at full throttle from 2K rpm up to the stock 6800 rpm redline; reprogramming it now would mostly optimize part-throttle response and take advantage of higher octane gas (it runs fine on 87 octane now, but it could lose its self-adjustability with reprogramming for 91+, too).

Right now I'm considering either an engine swap or supercharging. Going to a K20A2 motor from an RSX Type-S -- the easiest swap -- would get me about 190 whp (including the i/h/e on there now), an 8000-rpm redline, and close-ratio 6-speed transmission. If I got the 2.4-liter K24A2 from the TSX, the redline would be around 7K, but I'd gain another 30-40 ft-lbs of torque. Using another K24 engine (Accord, Element, etc) would have similar torque, and swapping to another head & cams could go beyond 250 whp. Boosting a K24 block with either a turbo or supercharger is the easy way to get 350 whp or more, but that's a little too much for daily driving in a front-wheel drive car.

For boost, I don't want to go turbo. Even though it can put out a lot of power for less money than a swap, there are still a lot more things that can go wrong, and I don't want to have to worry about checking over every little part so often. I also don't really like the idea of waiting for the turbo to spool up; I like good response. Supercharging with the Jackson Racing street kit can get up to 230 whp with a good ECU tune and remain emissions legal --not something that can be said about their race version. It should also be more reliable than turbo, although it's still not as worry-free as a swap (effectively a stock motor in a new chassis).

Either way, a limited-slip differential would be great to have; I'd like to put down power sooner when coming out of turns on the race course.

Actually, with more power, the limited slip diff may be a necessity, along with a size wider (not larger in diameter) tires to make sure you don't waste the extra power. Make sure your wheel wells can accomodate them.

An LSD is already nearly a necessity -- the parking lots we use don't have very much rubber on them (even by the time we get to the afternoon sessions) and I can feel the car fighting for grip if I get on the throttle too quickly.

I'll be able to fit up to 235- or 245-width tires in front (legal for STX, although my proposed engine mods would bump me to Street Mod instead) and maybe that much in the back, although I could probably do fine with 225's all around. Even so, a staggered front-rear setup could be productive, too. I also need to work on adjusting the camber & swaybar settings for a little nicer turn-in and better balance in mid-corner.

At the rate I'm going, it'll be a nice track car by the time I get married and have a family.. lol

And so we're not completely off thread: when you get done with the mods, will the Honda still be able to haul you and your tuba around?