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Okay, this is a new one on me:

Atkinson Horns presents our "Special Edition" Erfurt Kruspe Horns. Offered with aged material either specially heat treated or cryogenically frozen for quick response. Features including adjustable palm flipper, German engraving, ultra thin bells and our famous DeRosa leadpipe. Yes, the same leadpipe that Mr. DeRosa used on the Intimate Bach Album with Larendo Almada. Feel free to contact us for consultation.

The subject of freezing a horn has come up several times before, but what's this about "aged" material? Is there more brass voodoo afoot?

A little more information about Cryogenic processing for brass instruments can be found here:

http://www.thebrassbow.com/brassbw1.htm#Cryogenic

I too have never heard of "aging" brass, either what it is, how one might do that, or why. At least with aged wood there is a measureable impact due to changes in moisture content. How does brass getting older change its chracteristics?

"We will sell no tuba before its time."

I suppose this is the procedure, a Dutch company (Adams Music) offers as their secret formula to improve brass instruments. They refuse to tell what they exactly do, but apparently they are able to reduce tension that has been built up in the instrument by mechanic or hydraulic bending of bows. Yes, what they do, has a certain effect and results in a certain improvement. However, in my view it is too expensive (Euro 300 for a tuba).
I prefer early instruments (fully hammered and lead bent). They do not need magic like freezing.

Hubert

To quote Machinery's Handbook, Twenty-Fifth Edition-
Aging: Describes a time-temperature-dependent change in the properties of certain alloys. Except for strain aging and age softening, it is the result of precipitation from a solid solution of one or more compounds whose solubility decreases with decreasing temperature. For each alloy susceptible to aging, there is a unique range of time temperature combinations to which it will respond.
About as clear as a run of my sixteenth-notes, on a good day!!

I recall that one of the problems with traditional 30-70yellow brass alloys is that the zinc tends not to be uniformly distributed throughout and that there are areas of pure zinc along crystal planes.

What this leads to on very old instruments is the formation of cracks in the area of high zinc concentration as the more chemically active zinc corrodes away. That's why the tuba that spent the last decade as a birdbath in someone's garden is full of cracks.

But this surely can't be what "aging" brass is about, can it?

hubert wrote:... they are able to reduce tension that has been built up in the instrument by mechanic or hydraulic bending of bows.

Brass work-hardens when stressed beyond it's yield strength. Annealing the brass between operations such as forming and bending makes the brass dead-soft again. There has been a lot of discussion regarding work-harding. The general school of thought is that work-hardening does not take place under normal use. However, I think aging is a mild form of work-harding that takes place under normal circumstances. I think there is enough energy introduced into a brass horn to cause it to work-harden over a long period of time. Can't prove it, but that's what I think. I've seen too many old horns that are brittle even though they don't show any signs of over-stressing.

John_L wrote: If you're wondering why people don't just heat treat their horns, well, heat treating is a precarious process - too easy to overdo - and there is no way back once you're gone too far.

I don't wonder about heat treating to anneal brass because the heat required is beyond the melting point of solder. Heat treating to anneal (normalize) is done prior to assembly. When I anneal a brass tube prior to bending it, I heat it to red and then let it slowly air cool.

maybe the crygenic process has to do with the resonance. Vibrations resonate better on a smooth even medium rather than a pockmarked medium filled with stress etc.

If you can physically stress a node point and be able to tell a difference in intonation, why can't there be internal stress to the metal as well that would cause the same thing? I think there is more to it than just writing "new stuffy horn" syndrome off to nothing but player adaptation to a different instrument.

JeremyI wrote:I was realy supprised when this topic came up in my lesson one day. Our studio professor had both of her hirsbrunners frozen shortly after she bought them. She says after she got them back she was able to tell a big difference, and they had a much more centerd tone.

It would have been cool if she had a friend to take both tubas, freeze only one, and then bring them both back. I wonder if she could tell which was frozen.

Oh, yeah -- I forgot to ask -- is aged brass anything like aged beef? (Where IS that steak picture?)


Actually, comparing horns before and after freezing has been done with trumpets. See this article by Jason A. Blough:
http://www.whc.net/rjones/jasonb/

TubaTinker wrote:. I've seen too many old horns that are brittle even though they don't show any signs of over-stressing.

Dan, there is the phenomenon known as "stress corrosion cracking" that I think we've all seen in old horns:

http://www.hghouston.com/coppers/brass77.htm

bloke wrote:

aged material

finally: the proverbial "instrument made of cheese"

You mean THIS?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/squiddity- ... et-471003/

djohnson wrote:Here in the tundra it can happen several times a year without one knowing if they arn't careful. Starting Dec. 1 through Feb. Leaving a horn in a vehicle and in the garage, the horn could surely be exposed to a O* F to -30*F winter temperature. and the cost is free. The question I would have is; If the horn was froze at -30*F one night, and a week latter the temp changed to say -10*F would it change the effect on the horns sound??

Minus 30? Lightweights. Try -50 for week or so. Sheese, Southerners...

This cryo thing was all the rage in the shooting community a few years ago. A company in Decatur, IL was making money hand over fist for a while doing it. It seems to have gone away as a passing fancy.

drewfus wrote: This cryo thing was all the rage in the shooting community a few years ago.

In the human community, too! Apparently some folks just opt to get their heads frozen, as they're convinced that there will be better bodies in the future, or that their bodies can be replicated in the future using cells from their heads. I don't believe there's any truth to the rumour about Walt Disney getting frozen...

Isn't it curious how the discussion has swerved to the cryo business and not the"aging" question? I don't really want to reprise this subject--it's gotten enough play on the trumpet and trombone lists.

But what's this "aging" thing?

If it worked for Harrison Ford, it should work for my horns, right? I mean, he looked great after aging AND being frozen, plus.. his voice seemed to darken.

tubahed wrote:

bloke wrote:

aged material

finally: the proverbial "instrument made of cheese"

You mean THIS?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/squiddity- ... et-471003/

tubahed: that's a pretty gouda picture!

As far as the "aging" thing, I feel like I'm in the groove: An aged man playing aged music on aged brass (and usually for aged listeners)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/squiddity- ... et-471003/

Man...if you EVER get the chance to see & hear Han Bennick play drums (on anything.....even cheese) do not miss it! The guy is amazing.