Differences in 'sound.'

[jmerring]

Hi, friends,

I probably am opening can of worms here, but there seems to be strong opinions as to which horn to use for quintet, chamber, dixieland, etc. The average concert goer/music listener could not tell any difference (IMHO). What criteria are used to determine and/or justify playing (much less owning) 3-5 different horns?

Thank you's to all.

Jim

[Dan Schultz]

Well... my Miraphone 183-4 (Eb) works very well for small ensembles but simply won't do at an outdoor concert band gig where I use a rather large Martin BBb 'mammoth' sousa. I couldn't very well use that sousa to do chamber music! Now... for German gigs, a big 4V BBb Carl Wunderlich rotary fills the bill..... but THAT horn would look a little silly for Dixieland work where I use either a BIG King Eb bell front indoors or the Martin sousa outdoors.

I think I would be very limited if I had to use just one horn for everything. MOST of the public wouldn't know the difference. However, you never really know who's listening! And besides, I know the difference... and that's what counts most!

I don't think I would 'just stay home' if I didn't have multiple horns... but it would sure take the fun out of lots of gigs.

[Leland]

May I submit --

Some of the audience won't know, some will, but you can't ever really choose who's who.

I'd suggest that the player, and the ensemble, settles on the sound that makes them feel best, in both a visceral sense (dude, that rocks!) and a technical/historical sense (yes, that sounds stylistically correct.).

Whatever sound they end up with that they enjoy, they'll better enjoy playing, and they'll be more enthusiastic about performing (and practicing, too). That, hopefully, will also make that connection with the audience that makes the performance worthwhile.

Since everybody's got opinions about a good sound, you probably won't hear any two similarly-populated ensembles that sound alike -- at least to the highly critical ear.

[tubacdk]

The average concert goer/music listener could not tell any difference (IMHO). What criteria are used to determine and/or justify playing (much less owning) 3-5 different horns?

I think that in a large ensemble situation you're probably right about the average concertgoer not being able to tell much difference. But, in a chamber music setting or in a solo situation, I think they could definitely tell. I own three tubas and this is what I use them for:

5/4 CC - large ensemble playing
3/4 CC - outdoor/standup gigs, chamber music
4/4 F - solos, high repertoire

I could certainly get by with different setups, but I truly believe that this setup results in the best product for me. If I was only doing large ensemble playing, my setup would be different. But as I do a variety of stuff, I try to have the equipment best suited to the situation. Even in large ensembles, I think the average concertgoer would probably notice a difference, even subtly. I would think that they'd find the Ride of the Valkyries a little less satisfying on my 3/4 CC than on my 5/4. I also think the solo on Mahler 1 would sound just wrong on most other horns aside from a bass tuba. I know people have played it convincingly otherwise, but all things being equal, there is no way a contrabass can sound as gentle or deft on that solo as a bass tuba.

I think the place where you're playing can make a big difference too. I have often gone to a rehearsal with one horn and showed up for the concert with something else because I didn't like the way the first horn worked in the performance space.

All that to say, I own three tubas because they sound different enough that they create a product that is best tailored to the situation. And I believe that the average concertgoer can tell a difference, whether they explicitly know it or not.

-ck

[Joe Baker]

Hi, friends,

I probably am opening can of worms here, but there seems to be strong opinions as to which horn to use for quintet, chamber, dixieland, etc. The average concert goer/music listener could not tell any difference (IMHO). What criteria are used to determine and/or justify playing (much less owning) 3-5 different horns?

I don't know the difference between a hemostat and a vascular clamp, but I would sure expect my surgeon to use the correct tools. Most of us amateurs can't afford the luxury of multiple tubas, but to the extent it is possible we should try to play an instrument that fits the occasion and the musical style.
_______________________________
Joe Baker, who continues to struggle with a borrowed 6/4 Holton bell-front (*groan*) for his up-coming outdoor concert.

[Tubatoad]

From a tuba novice, recently (3years) switched from trombone in a small church orchestra, the audience may not know exactly what they are hearing, but they are often more perceptive than we might give them credit for. My experience: after breaking the congregation in on an Amati/Brasswind 3/4 Bb, it was time for an upgrade. Went to The Tuba Exchange, got a St.Petersburg 201 to try for 2 weeks. Great sound (my bass groupie daughter loved the way the floor vibrated when I practiced in the basement!), comments from the folk were "love the tuba, can you play any softer?". Since I was already at 15% or less, I took it back and went with a Cerveny 683 compact horn. Big bore, slightly smaller sound. Now they tell me they love the sound, and the men in the congregation are better able to sing the bass line. Director loves it too. They could tell.

[Lew]

Hi, friends,
... What criteria are used to determine and/or justify playing (much less owning) 3-5 different horns?
Jim

The only criteria I need to justify owning 6 tubas, is because I can afford it and I want to. I have a 4/4 BBb (King 2341) that I use for a community band where I'm the only tuba player, a 6/4 recording bell BBb (Martin Handcraft) for large venue outdoor gigs, an Eb (Besson 983) that I use in the band where there are 4 other tuba players and for the rare (for me) quintet gigs, and an 1880s Eb bombardon (Boston Musical Instrument) that I used the one time that I did a Civil War gig (although it is of later vintage, it looks similar to non over the shoulder horns that were available in the 1860s). I also have 2 Henry Distin tubas, a BBb and Eb that I use occasionally, but are really just for show.

If I couldn't afford the others the King would be my only horn, and I wouldn't have a problem with either sound or volume. If I were a professional my answer would probably be different.

[Jay Bertolet]

It's all well and good to say "I can play everything on my XX tuba, why do I need more than one?". But what do you get?

I can play the Vaughan-Williams on every tuba I own. While it is a bit of a struggle on the 6/4 CC, I can do it. Why would I do this? I think that we have to look at the historical context of what we do. The V-W was written for bass tuba. It even says this clearly in the title of the work. I have never heard a satisfactory performance of this work on a contrabass tuba. No matter the artist, I always walk away thinking that it sounded like a square peg being shoved into a round hole. The piece lays very well on a bass tuba. Its character is best revealed (in my opinion) on the instrument it was intended for. Why fight the obvious?

Tuba music has been written for over 175 years. The instruments used to perform this music have changed radically over that time span. While not all composers knew what they were doing in scoring for tuba, a lot of them did. A lot of them were quite savvy in their specific choice of instrument. As a result, there are many different conceptions of how the tuba part in a given ensemble or piece of music fits in. To ignore the composer's intentions is to risk not rendering a performance true to the piece. As an artist, I'm unwilling to do this. So I own several different horns that I use to their best effect, given the music and ensembles that I play in.

Besides, I want to meet the tuba player that can own one tuba that can sound like a contrabass tuba, a bass tuba, a cimbasso, an ophicliede, and a serpent. That would be something to see/hear

My opinion for what it's worth...

[Dave Roberts]

The V-W was written for bass tuba. It even says this clearly in the title of the work. I have never heard a satisfactory performance of this work on a contrabass tuba. No matter the artist, I always walk away thinking that it sounded like a square peg being shoved into a round hole. The piece lays very well on a bass tuba. Its character is best revealed (in my opinion) on the instrument it was intended for. Why fight the obvious?

Tuba music has been written for over 175 years. The instruments used to perform this music have changed radically over that time span. While not all composers knew what they were doing in scoring for tuba, a lot of them did. A lot of them were quite savvy in their specific choice of instrument. As a result, there are many different conceptions of how the tuba part in a given ensemble or piece of music fits in. To ignore the composer's intentions is to risk not rendering a performance true to the piece. As an artist, I'm unwilling to do this. So I own several different horns that I use to their best effect, given the music and ensembles that I play in.

Besides, I want to meet the tuba player that can own one tuba that can sound like a contrabass tuba, a bass tuba, a cimbasso, an ophicliede, and a serpent. That would be something to see/hear

My opinion for what it's worth...

Jay...agree with you in principle, however, instrument availability is another issue. For example, as a budding young high school player about a hundred years ago, an old Walter Sear 4 piston BBb was my tuba by default for ripping through the Vaughn Williams before the instrument upgrade. Now, my Boosey F, (actually the tuba for which it was written for), is what I use. So, instrument/piece asthetics is not always an easy solution especially with the tuba prices these days. As a Pro, of course, this is something one should try to achieve. This was a worse case scenario, but, I think you dig my drift. Dave

[Tubatoad]

Forget about what those musically uneducated heathen are telling you. Play it loud and tell them you can't play any softer, you're only using one lip as it is.
You know I'm joking of course, I've dealt with this as well. I've been playing a 3/4 size myself for years and last December finally got the 4/4 size. I've thoroughly enjoyed being able to play louder, but have also enjoyed holding back because now I don't have to work as hard to project at the same level that our director is accustomed to. And if I have to, I can still crank it up and be heard over the rest of our 25 strong group.[/quote]

25 strong? Lucky you - we do good to have an octet! Hence the small horn. I'm happy for you though.

[Jay Bertolet]

Dave,

I absolutely hear where you're coming from and I understand your point. The problem is that it's not totally relevant to the original discussion. The original poster wanted to know how anyone would justify playing 3-5 different horns, let alone owning them. My point was that those of us who do play multiple horns have very good reasons, issues rooted in how and why we play, that lead us to follow this path. I think the point is moot when we talk about affording these horns. Either you buy them or not because you have the money or don't. That's a whole separate issue. If you have the means, there are very good, very rewarding aspects that result from playing multiple horns.

This is an interesting point that some have made regarding whether or not the audience at large really is aware of the differences. Let me pose a thought: Since music is communication and we, as musicians, are relaying the message that was written by the composer, what message does the audience get when we choose to alter the piece, if even in subtle ways like using the wrong instruments? If you think about it in these terms, you don't have to assume a very sophisticated audience to expect that they will hear the difference in the final product. Obviously we are talking about art, a very subjective thing. There really are no wrong answers except for the obvious reasons and all results are validated or not by personal taste. Still, if your perspective is slanted towards historical accuracy and some devotion to honoring the composer's intentions, not using instruments that render the part in a historically accurate way can constitute a major variance from what you might consider desirable.

I think that ultimately we have to be pleased with the results for art to be effective. After all, this is why we're on stage. If we don't believe in the message, nobody will. Besides, this is why we get the big bucks.

My opinion for what it's worth...

[Dave Roberts]

No sweat Jay...just trying to expand the topic into an area where we've all been affected as some point in our careers. Just want to make sure that these young cats don't get the idea that you won't be successful unless you own 5 axes. Yes, it's always important to use the correct instrument for which the piece was written. However, it won't always be available. Heck, I won my first symphony job on a Meinl 25. Jake, for example, frequently used the York in the quintet. No one ever sweated that because of the end product that he achieved. I'm sure there are a number of cats out there who've done the same crazy things that we've done. It's the musical end product that's most important and how it fits into the big picture. Using the correct instrument makes it easier to achieve. Just don't sweat it if you can't get your hands on it. Dave

[tubapress]

Part of our responsibility as musicians is to choose the appropriate equipment for our performance situations. I liken it to a painter selecting brushes. Sure the paint will go on the paper with any brush, but sometimes you want strokes you can only get with a thick brush. Sometimes you want strokes you can only get with a thin brush. It depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

Although some will disagree with me, I don't find the sound of a BAT in a quintet to be very appropriate. One can certainly play in tune and some can play clean enough with the necessary agility, but to me the nature of the sound of a BAT is just too thick for a small group.

There is also the issue of group intonation. Intonation is not just simply playing in tune, but balancing as well.

The average listener may not know the difference between an F tuba, a small CC or a BAT, for example, except for the visual difference. However, when one instrument dominates just by the sheer breadth of sound it can be a distraction.

The responsibility falls to us as artists to make responsible decisions about what equipment we use in a given setting or a given work.